Agriculture Committee on April 9th, 2024

[Ben Carr, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Thanks very much, Mr. Chair.

My question first is to Ms. Semeniuk.

We heard the president of the CVMA a few moments ago in testimony talk about the expertise of certain veterinary medical professionals as being derived from emotion and not expertise.

As a member of the Winnipeg Humane Society and somebody who advocates consistently for animal welfare, can you speak to what reaction there may be in Winnipeg from veterinary medical professionals you've spoken with in relation to this argument that their expertise should be diminished and cast aside as simply emotional?

I would then ask Madam Cartwright to respond to that same question.

Thank you.

[Brittany Semeniuk]

Thank you for your question.

I think a large majority of veterinarians, and not just in Manitoba, feel that their expertise in the science behind welfare is not subjective. You study the welfare of an animal regardless of the species, with the same method and using the same science. Veterinarians are trained in that exact manner.

I do have the utmost respect for the CVMA, but as we heard today, their position in this hearing does not represent every single veterinarian in Canada, nor every single veterinary technologist across Canada.

I think there is something to be said about certain equine practitioners who.... The exporters are their clients. It is not in their best interests for these exporters to see this industry come to an end.

I do not question the intention of these veterinarians. I have the utmost respect for equine veterinarians. I know many of them personally, but the reality is that this is their clientele as well.

[Ben Carr, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Thank you.

Ms. Cartwright, I have the same question for you, and I can repeat it if needed.

[Barbara Cartwright]

No, that's okay.

I, like Brittany, hold the CVMA in the highest regard. We sat on the Canadian Veterinary Medical Association animal welfare committee for decades and consider ourselves partners. Sadly, we were not aware of this position, which has been challenging for us.

Certainly when it comes to the idea of emotion, I've met—

[Ben Carr, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

I'm sorry, Ms. Cartwright, to interrupt, but I just want to make sure that I understand. Do you sit on the board currently?

[Barbara Cartwright]

No. It's on the animal welfare committee of the Canadian Veterinary Medical Association—

[Ben Carr, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Is that currently?

[Barbara Cartwright]

Yes. We have an ex officio seat.

[Ben Carr, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Were you not made aware of the position taken by the CVMA?

[Barbara Cartwright]

No, we were not aware of what was coming today.

[Ben Carr, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Please continue.

[Barbara Cartwright]

With regard to emotion, I think person has to bring their whole mind, body and spirit to anything they do. The veterinarians I know do that.

I will make mention that animal welfare is not necessarily trained into veterinarians in vet schools, which was really interesting to me when I started 10 years ago in this role.

There is a drive to bring more animal welfare science into veterinarian schools, so I will leave you with that: that we need to continue to increase in all people who work with animals an understanding of animal welfare.

[Ben Carr, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

I noted with some interest my colleague across the way a moment ago, who took some time out of our witness testimony today to suggest that the committee should report back to the House the number of signatures that he has received from people who are reacting to a different policy, that being a price on pollution. Perhaps we should table from this committee the 36,000-plus signatures we have received in relation to this piece of legislation. It seems to me somewhat contradictory to suggest that petitions are, in one instance, worthwhile when they support the position you're taking on one issue, but dismissed as emotional when they support another.

Ms. Semeniuk, I'd like to go back to you and then ask the same question of Ms. Cartwright: Can you tell us what evidence you have seen that helps explain the process by which horse welfare is taken into consideration once the horses have arrived in Japan through to the point when they're slaughtered?

Mr. Lawson, with all due respect to him, could not come up with anything beyond suggesting through anecdotal and second-hand conversation that he was confident that horse welfare was being looked after. In addition, a statement from the Embassy of Japan is hardly evidence to support that.

Ms. Semeniuk and then Ms. Cartwright, in about 20 seconds apiece, could you please just speak to what evidence you have seen to suggest that the horses' welfare is being upheld in Japan?

[Brittany Semeniuk]

I have not personally seen any evidence that the welfare is being upheld in Japan. I have seen instances of other cases of extreme violations in the use of horses in Japan that have raised significant red flags. These are not necessarily concerning horses that have been exported for meat; they are severe welfare violations that have been brought forward about racehorses within Japan.

[Ben Carr, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Thank you.

Mr. Chair, how much time do I have?

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, John Barlow]

You're done.

[Ben Carr, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Can we give Ms. Cartwright just 15 seconds?

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, John Barlow]

Be very quick, Ms. Cartwright.

[Barbara Cartwright]

I have no evidence, which is a problem.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, John Barlow]

Thank you.

Mr. Perron, you have two and a half minutes.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Martellani, some people, including some committee members, have expressed concern that enacting the ban would set a dangerous precedent for other livestock that are exported. We understand that horses are sensitive animals, but all animals are sensitive. We export pigs, and they're sensitive, too.

What would you say to people who are afraid this will set a precedent for other livestock?

[Erin Martellani]

That is indeed an argument that we've heard more than once. Personally, I think it's an unfounded and somewhat alarmist argument.

The bill as drafted specifically targets horses that are exported for slaughter in Japan, a specific niche market. Nowhere does the bill mention the export of horses for other reasons or the domestic slaughter of horses. I don't think it can be interpreted as targeting other sectors of the livestock industry.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Thank you.

Many people feel that this bill is more about the social status of the horse than banning the export of horses by air. A few witnesses have suggested that the horse is more of a companion animal than a livestock animal, and that the next step would be to prohibit the slaughter of horses. Do you want to respond to that?

[Erin Martellani]

Yes, certainly. I would say more or less the same thing. The bill is very specific and does not address domestic slaughter at all. In Quebec, horses are not raised for slaughter. The ones that are slaughtered for their meat are mostly culled or injured horses. These are slaughtered in Quebec, though. They're not exported halfway around the world to be slaughtered.

The fact that 85% of our horsemeat is being exported to Japan proves that the demand is more for horsemeat than live horses. I think that answers the question.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Thank you.