Evidence of meeting #106 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was reductions.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Jerry V. DeMarco  Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General
Mathieu Lequain  Principal, Office of the Auditor General
Kimberley Leach  Principal, Office of the Auditor General
Markirit Armutlu  Principal, Office of the Auditor General
Stephanie Tanton  Assistant Deputy Minister, Department of Industry
Jean-Philippe Lapointe  Director General, Business Development and Strategy Branch, Department of Industry
Dany Drouin  Director General, Plastics and Waste Management Directorate, Department of the Environment
Nicole Côté  Director General, Environmental Protection Operations, Department of the Environment

3:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Good afternoon, everyone.

Welcome, Commissioner. We're pleased to see you again. We saw you a few days ago at the members' briefing.

I'd also like to welcome all the departmental representatives. As the list of witnesses is rather long, I won't read out all the names and titles of the witnesses or else we'd be here all day. So welcome to all of you.

Everyone here is aware of the acoustic feedback problems that have been experienced by the interpreters. I would therefore like to take a few moments to review the rules. You've heard them before, whether in this committee or another one, but I'd like to read the new guidelines for preventing acoustic feedback.

All earpieces have been replaced by a model that greatly reduces the probability of audio feedback. The new earpieces are black, whereas the former earpieces were grey. Please only use an approved black earpiece. By default, all unused earpieces will be unplugged at the start of a meeting. When you are not using your earpiece, please place it face down on the middle of the sticker for this purpose, which you will find on the table as indicated.

Please consult the cards on the table for guidelines to prevent audio feedback incidents. The room layout has been adjusted to increase the distance between microphones and to reduce the chance of feedback from an ambient earpiece.

Keep your earpiece either on your ear or on the table well away from the microphone to avoid any acoustic feedback that could cause injuries to the interpreters. All open microphones can be a source of acoustic feedback. When the microphone is on, don't touch the boom. Stay a reasonable distance from the microphone when you're speaking. Lastly, avoid increasing the volume level of your earpiece to maximum.

That's it for the instructions.

Without further ado, I am now giving the floor to the commissioner of the environment and sustainable development.

3:30 p.m.

Jerry V. DeMarco Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General

Mr. Chair, I'm pleased to be here today to speak about the five performance audit reports that were tabled in the House of Commons on Tuesday.

I'd like to begin by acknowledging that we are gathered here on the traditional unceded territory of the Anishinabe Algonquin people. This territory is also home to numerous other first nations, Inuit and Métis peoples whom I also acknowledge and whose contributions I appreciate.

Also with me here today are Ms. Kimberley Leach, Ms. Markirit Armutlu, and Ms. Susan Gomez, as well as Mr. Nicholas Swales and Mr. Mathieu Lequain, all of whom are principals who conduct audit assignments.

Our first report is on the zero plastic waste initiative. We found that the federal government did not know whether its reduction activities would eliminate all plastic waste by 2030. Although the initiative refers to zero plastic waste, its targets refer only to reducing plastic waste and are not measuring against the end goal of zero plastic waste. It is an important distinction that needs to be reflected in the initiative's reporting so that Canadians and parliamentarians can see how much progress is being made towards eliminating plastic waste.

The good news is that we found that the waste reduction activities under this initiative have been achieving positive results and are in close alignment with Canada's priorities. For example, Fisheries and Oceans Canada funded 67 projects to remove abandoned, lost or discarded gear. However, the organizations did not have the information required to demonstrate how their efforts contributed to achieving the Canada-wide objective. For example, there was a three-year delay in publishing Statistics Canada data on plastic waste in the environment. To reduce plastic pollution, the federal government must work together with many parties, including the provinces, the territories, the municipalities and the private sector. With so many partners, it's particularly important to have strict tracking systems.

Our next audit examined contaminated sites in northern Canada, which continue to carry significant health, environmental and financial risks. We found that Transport Canada and Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs Canada, which manage many of these sites, complied with the federal contaminated sites action plan; however, this was not enough to meet the objectives of reducing the health, environmental and financial risks associated with these sites.

The Canada-wide financial liability for known federal contaminated sites has increased from $2.9 billion to $10.1 billion since the launch of the action plan in 2005. While only 11% of sites are in the north, over 60% of Canada’s total estimated financial liability is linked to the remediation of northern sites. This is an enormous financial burden on taxpayers and represents a failure to properly implement the polluter pays principle, as many private sector sites had to be taken over by the federal government.

After 20 years, much remains to be done to reduce the costs of dealing with contaminated sites and mitigating environmental and human health risks in the interests of current and future generations. The government needs to urgently introduce measures to foster socio-economic benefits, including job opportunities, and to support reconciliation with indigenous peoples, whose lands have often been affected by contaminated sites.

I will now move on to the remaining three reports on measures to combat climate change.

Our recent reports examined the two largest emission sectors. This year, we looked at other major sources of emissions, which are building materials, manufacturing industries and agriculture. In all of these audits, we found that progress was slow, and that there were no long-term approaches to reduce emissions. This finding does not, however, affect the potential of these measures to help Canada become carbon neutral, provided that they are designed and implemented more effectively.

Our audit of the greening of building materials in public infrastructures revealed that the transition to low-carbon building materials was too slow given the urgency of the climate change crisis.

Though the federal government first expressed in 2006 its desire to move markets towards goods and services that carry a lower carbon footprint, it took more than 10 years for it to consider the use of low-carbon construction materials, and it was only in late 2022 that the Treasury Board of Canada Secretariat established the standard on embodied carbon in construction. As of now, the standard applies only to ready-mix concrete.

We also found that Public Services and Procurement Canada had not finished incorporating the requirements of the standard into its infrastructure procurement process. Meanwhile, Infrastructure Canada has incorporated considerations related to reducing the carbon content of construction materials into its funding programs only in a limited way.

This is important because emissions from construction and construction materials account for 11% of Canada's total emissions. This slow pace of change is concerning, because steel production typically emits high amounts of greenhouse gases and is widely used in major construction projects. To increase Canada's chances of meeting its 2030 and 2050 climate commitments, the federal government needs to more actively promote the use of low-carbon construction materials in public infrastructure.

The next audit was of the net zero accelerator initiative, whose objective is to reduce greenhouse gas, or GHG, emissions by providing incentives for Canadian industries to decarbonize their activities.

We found that Innovation, Science and Economic Development Canada had been unsuccessful in attracting the country's largest industrial emitters. Of the 55 companies that generated the most emissions, only 15 submitted a funding application under the initiative and only two signed a contribution agreement. The lengthy and complex application process, which required an average of 407 hours to complete, was no doubt one of the reasons why the department did not attract more applicants. We also found that the department did not always know to what extent GHG emissions had been reduced by those companies that took part in the initiative, or whether the funding provided would lead to reduced emissions.

Surprisingly there is no overarching industrial decarbonization policy to provide Innovation, Science and Economic Development Canada with a clear picture of which industries are most in need of funds to reduce emissions. I am concerned about what the department plans to do to address the significant gaps uncovered in our audit, given the vague responses it provided to our recommendations.

Our last audit looked at agriculture and climate change mitigation. We found that Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada had not developed a strategy for how the agriculture sector would contribute to Canada's 2030 and 2050 climate goals despite a strategy being first called for in 2020.

In 2021, the department launched three key programs aimed at reducing greenhouse gas emissions; however, delays in funding approvals resulted in recipients missing a growing season. The department has so far achieved less than 2% of its 2030 overall greenhouse gas reduction target. Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada will need to ensure that all expected reductions in greenhouse gas emissions for 2030 take place in the six growing seasons that remain.

We also found that Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada had not yet established performance targets for two of the three programs, making it difficult to assess progress. The department's contribution to reduced GHG emissions is indispensable in the battle against climate change, hence the importance of setting goals and monitoring results.

Despite the limited results reported thus far, all of these climate initiatives could, if they were improved, contribute to achieving carbon neutrality by 2050 and making key changes for current and future generations.

Given the ongoing climate crisis and the federal government's repeated struggles to achieve real emission reductions, a strategic, coherent, results-oriented approach is essential if Canada is to play its part in the global fight against climate change.

Mr. Chair, this concludes my opening statement. We'd be pleased to answer any questions that the committee may have.

Thank you

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Thank you, Commissioner.

We'll go to the first round of questions.

We start with Mr. Mazier for six minutes.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Dan Mazier Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, Commissioner and staff, for coming out here this afternoon.

Commissioner, the net-zero accelerator is costing Canadians a staggering $8 billion. The Liberals say the purpose of this multi-billion-dollar program is to reduce emissions. Is the government tracking the value for money for this program, yes or no?

3:45 p.m.

Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General

Jerry V. DeMarco

Not in a public way.... We've made our own calculations of the value for money that we could, based on the data they have, but we have seen no public reporting on the value for money, no.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Dan Mazier Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB

Wow, okay. How many emissions have been reduced by this $8-billion program, exactly?

3:45 p.m.

Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General

Jerry V. DeMarco

I can't say how many yet. I can say how many are committed to in contribution agreements, because those agreements cover a period of time that's just started recently. In those contribution agreements, five of the 17 add up to 6.2 megatonnes in 17 contribution agreements, five of which have commitments in them, the other 12 don't; and those contribution agreements amount to over $3 billion of the total $8 billion dedicated to this fund.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Dan Mazier Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB

My question was on exactly how many emissions have been reduced by this $8 billion program. Have there been none yet?

3:45 p.m.

Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General

Jerry V. DeMarco

We didn't track how many to date. We tracked how many we're committed to in the agreements, because they have a lifespan.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Dan Mazier Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB

So, you don't know.

3:45 p.m.

Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General

Jerry V. DeMarco

The figure of 6.2 megatonnes is the total for the five agreements that have commitments to reductions.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Dan Mazier Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB

Did you find any evidence to suggest the Liberal government was over-reporting their emission reductions through this $8 billion fund—yes or no?

3:45 p.m.

Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General

Jerry V. DeMarco

We did have concerns about their calculations, and I can turn to Monsieur Lequain to explain how we got to 6.2 megatonnes, because that's not exactly the number they're using, which I think is what you're getting at.

3:45 p.m.

Mathieu Lequain Principal, Office of the Auditor General

If you look at exhibit 4, you see you have two lines. The first one, which is the number—

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Dan Mazier Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB

I have lots of questions here. I guess the question was: Did you find any evidence to suggest that the Liberal government was over-reporting their emissions reductions through this $8-billion fund, yes or no?

3:45 p.m.

Principal, Office of the Auditor General

Mathieu Lequain

As we said in the report, when we asked for detailed information on the reduction of greenhouse gas by project, we noticed that the total was higher than the sum of the projects for the projects under pillars 2 and 3 by 2.2 megatonnes.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Dan Mazier Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB

Would that be yes?

3:45 p.m.

Principal, Office of the Auditor General

Mathieu Lequain

That was over-reporting.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Dan Mazier Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB

Thank you.

You stated that the government could be double-counting the emissions being reduced. Is this true?

3:45 p.m.

Principal, Office of the Auditor General

Mathieu Lequain

The SIF NZA today sometimes finances projects to create new clean technology, but the GHG reduction will come from the use of this technology, not from the production of this technology, so there's a risk of double-counting, yes.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Dan Mazier Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB

What are the results of that? If we double-counted, we can't get close to the emissions, right? They'd be falsely reported, so they'd be elevated. It wouldn't be doing as much good as it's probably meant to for $8 billion, right?

3:45 p.m.

Principal, Office of the Auditor General

Mathieu Lequain

That's what we say in the report, yes.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Dan Mazier Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB

That's amazing.

You mentioned carbon pricing on page 5 of report number four. Has the government provided you with unrestricted access to their interactive carbon tax emission projection model called EC-PRO?

3:45 p.m.

Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General

Jerry V. DeMarco

I'm going to have Principal Leach come up to address that question, because we received one new document in the last couple of weeks, and I just want to make sure that we address that question accurately.

Go ahead, Ms. Leach.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Dan Mazier Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB

Did you receive this document just the last couple of weeks?