Evidence of meeting #107 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was taxonomy.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Andrew Chisholm  Member, Canada’s Expert Panel on Sustainable Finance, As an Individual
Barbara Zvan  Member, Canada’s Expert Panel on Sustainable Finance, As an Individual
Jerry V. DeMarco  Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General
Mathieu Lequain  Principal, Office of the Auditor General

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Good afternoon, colleagues.

Today we are commencing our study on the environment and climate impacts related to the Canadian financial system.

At the end of the meeting, I will need five minutes to give an update on our invitation to the oil company CEOs. We should be able to resolve that issue fairly quickly if we have everyone's co-operation.

Without further ado, I would like to welcome our first guests. With us are two members of Canada's expert panel on sustainable finance: Andrew Chisholm and Barbara Zvan, who also serves as president and chief executive officer of another organization.

I am told that they want to divide their ten minutes between themselves and that Ms. Zvan will begin.

3:35 p.m.

Andrew Chisholm Member, Canada’s Expert Panel on Sustainable Finance, As an Individual

That's fine, yes.

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

The floor is yours, Ms. Zvan.

3:35 p.m.

Barbara Zvan Member, Canada’s Expert Panel on Sustainable Finance, As an Individual

Good afternoon, Chair and members.

My name is Barb Zvan. I am, as noted, the president and CEO of the University Pension Plan. I was also a member of the Sustainable Finance Action Council and the chair of the taxonomy technical expert group. In addition, I was one of the members of the expert panel on sustainable finance. As a representative of the finance community, I'm here to talk about the important link between the economy, sustainable finance and the environment.

The Canadian economy is not faring as well as we'd like. In March, the Bank of Canada's deputy governor said it was time to “break the glass” on productivity, warning us that Canada's lagging productivity had reached an emergency level. Against this economic backdrop, the effects of climate change are undeniably upon us. The last 12 months have been the hottest in recorded history. Last winter was 5.2°C warmer than historic norms, and 2023 marked our worst wildfire season.

The economic toll of climate change on Canada's GDP, exports and job losses is foreseeable. The global predictions released a few weeks ago are even more staggering. The 2022 federal budget estimated that Canada needs an additional $115 billion annually to meet our net-zero commitments. This is an unprecedented investment opportunity that cannot be met by public funding.

Being low carbon is a driver of competitiveness, and Canada is well placed to leverage its expertise in the area of critical minerals, clean energy and green transportation. The market is poised to grow, as evidenced by the rapid growth in the green bond market and in green exports. Canada's low-carbon exports grew by 9.4% between 2012 and 2023, outperforming the rate of growth of all other exports combined.

To benefit from market opportunities that support Canada's net-zero goals, we need to unlock private sector investment potential and bolster the attractiveness of Canada as a net-zero-aligned investment destination. What is holding us back? While there may be a myriad of reasons, let me focus on my area of expertise, which is investments.

When making long-term investments, Canadian and global investors alike look for as much certainty as possible by way of credible information, proactive disclosures aligned with global standards, and confidence that the projects and assets we're investing in will reduce carbon emissions in line with domestic and global commitments. Investors are looking for policy certainty around Canada's net-zero transition priorities and for the right building blocks for mainstream sustainable finance in support of net-zero goals.

In 2018, the expert panel on sustainable finance examined ways to scale and align sustainable finance with Canada's climate and economic goals. We identified the importance of a taxonomy and disclosures as critical building blocks for mainstream sustainable finance and for building market confidence. The recommendations we issued in 2019 included establishing the Sustainable Finance Action Council, or SFAC, to bring together stakeholders to develop Canada's taxonomy.

The SFAC, which included significant representation from Canada's financial industry and regulators, provided its report in September 2022. We included a framework for a made-in-Canada green and transition taxonomy that is aligned with our net-zero goals and economy and is in step with international expectations and other taxonomies. We also provided proposed elements of a good governance model to get this off the ground.

What is a taxonomy? A taxonomy is a classification system. It will help channel capital toward projects that are classified as green and, importantly and uniquely to Canada, will transition projects that will help companies reduce their carbon footprints in a stepwise way. The playbook for this already exists. Globally, there are more than 40 taxonomies already in place or under development. Each is customized to a specific country or region in order to link global capital markets with their respective net-zero pathways. Most G7 countries, many OECD countries, several resource-based economies, including Australia, and many developing countries have taxonomies. Kenya just published their draft taxonomy.

A taxonomy together with climate disclosure standards being developed by the International Sustainability Standards Board, which represents over 164 jurisdictions, would foster investor confidence, support the growth of Canada's sustainable finance market and create an overall more attractive investment climate. This will, in turn, attract funding for Canada's clean-tech sector, provide capex for operating companies' net-zero plans, grow our economy, generate good jobs and catalyze productivity growth.

We have studied this issue extensively. The expert panel and the Sustainable Finance Action Council recommendations were presented in 2019 and 2022, respectively. In the years that have passed, dozens of countries and regions have leapfrogged us, even levering our work.

Businesses and investors are prepared to invest now. I urge you to put the building blocks in place needed for Canada to be in the running to attract some of this investment to fund our transition.

Thank you for your time and interest. I look forward to your questions.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Thank you.

Mr. Chisholm, go ahead, please.

3:40 p.m.

Member, Canada’s Expert Panel on Sustainable Finance, As an Individual

Andrew Chisholm

Good afternoon. Thank you very much for inviting me to participate in the session today.

My name is Andy Chisholm. I was a member of the expert panel with Barb and others.

For 30 years, my career was as an investment banker in New York and London. More recently, however, I have been involved in the sustainable finance arena in various ways. Among other activities, I am an adviser to ArcTern Ventures, one of Canada's leading clean-tech venture capital companies, and I am an investor myself in early-stage private companies that are involved in the clean-tech space. I am also on the board of RBC, and advisory boards of sustainability initiatives at two leading business schools.

My comments or observations today follow from the original work on the panel and represent high-level reflections that are coming, as Barb said, five years later.

My first observation is that the main tenets of the 2019 report still hold true. Specifically, if Canada wishes to succeed in its emissions reduction commitments in a timely manner, at the same time as taking advantage of the economic opportunities that arise from innovation in the face of climate change, it's essential that finance flows in an aligned manner. Furthermore, the amount of investment required to adjust energy systems, materials and industrial processes and to commercialize new technologies is well beyond the reach of the public sector, and in any case ideally would be the purview of private sector actors.

Hence, there is a need to create the conditions for the private sector to act in the context of our market-based economy. These conditions involve implementing new rules, regulations and standards, a number of which Barb has just referred to, in parallel with investing in infrastructure, supporting innovation and timely commercial adjustment, and easing implementation challenges.

My second observation is that approximately five years have passed since we published our report. That period represents something close to half of the available time to the year 2030, which is, as you know, widely used internationally as an important waypoint for measuring progress on emissions reduction.

While there has been significant progress made in sustainable finance on a number of fronts, and investment flows have grown significantly in very recent times, we're still falling well short on delivering emissions reductions. In part, this is because such capital flows and corporate investment are still meaningfully less than commentators suggest is necessary to reach the stated objectives.

Meanwhile, the important foundations for success in sustainable finance, which were outlined in the 2019 report, are still to be finalized in a Canadian context. Most notably, they include adjustments to corporate disclosure guidelines and the taxonomy that Barb referred to, with one aspect of the taxonomy, transition alignment, being something of particular interest to the Canadian economy, which is relatively carbon-intense.

Why are these things so important? Markets operate more efficiently with better, more observable information; consistency and clarity facilitate scale in financial activity; and in the face of uncertainty, many actors develop a go-slow bias, waiting for information to become more clear. It's for this reason that we must make more decisions more quickly, even if they are imperfect at the start.

Success in achieving an orderly path towards a decarbonization of the economy requires sufficient continuous progress; otherwise, the gap widens and available time compresses, thereby increasing the likelihood of a disorderly transition and/or undershooting on the delivery of the original goals and commitments. Within both society and government, it's evident that we do not have a singular point of view. Therefore, a degree of pragmatism will be required to get to decisions faster in the interest of gaining ground and not losing more time. Such decisions should also consider interoperability with provinces, territories and commercial partners, notably the U.S. and Europe.

My third observation is that to date, a high percentage of climate spending has come from government sources. Over time, the vast majority of capital investment activity will need to be initiated by the private sector. The private sector, both domestically and internationally, responds to signals that may intersect with but are not identical to those of government. As a result, to crowd in private market-based finance, especially in the context of the largest and most impactful projects, it's important that the interface between business, private sector finance and government be as efficient and effective as possible to ensure that both public sector and private sector objectives are met.

It's for this reason the relevant government departments would be well served by having a more coordinated approach to the sustainable finance file. Furthermore, it would be beneficial for individuals involved in that file to have strong senior business or market experience and relationships, allowing them to identify when and how best to employ blended finance techniques.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Mr. Chisholm, we'll have to stop you there to leave time for questions.

3:45 p.m.

Member, Canada’s Expert Panel on Sustainable Finance, As an Individual

Andrew Chisholm

By all means do. Thank you for listening.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

That was very interesting. Thank you for presenting.

Mr. Mazier, you have six minutes.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Dan Mazier Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you for coming this afternoon. This question is for both of you.

If Canada adopted all 15 recommendations in the final report of the expert panel on sustainable finance, how many emissions would be reduced in Canada as a direct result?

3:50 p.m.

Member, Canada’s Expert Panel on Sustainable Finance, As an Individual

Barbara Zvan

That's difficult math. I would say that finance doesn't solve climate change, but everything that does essentially requires financing. When you think about a company that has to put in CCUS or a building that has to have renovations, all that is backed by financing.

Maybe I will reverse that question. For our emissions target, without financing being aligned, you will not meet the goal.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Dan Mazier Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB

You mentioned CCUS. This is a 65-page report. You must have had some idea of how many emissions would have been reduced if these were implemented.

3:50 p.m.

Member, Canada’s Expert Panel on Sustainable Finance, As an Individual

Barbara Zvan

CCUS is critical—

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Dan Mazier Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB

I mean the whole report. If all 15 recommendations has been followed, what was your hope?

3:50 p.m.

Member, Canada’s Expert Panel on Sustainable Finance, As an Individual

Barbara Zvan

Our hope was that we would actually meet our target, because we're enabling finance. Canada has a 2050 net-zero target. That requires significant investment—$115 billion annually, as estimated by the federal government. That is beyond government budgets.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Dan Mazier Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB

Thank you.

The CEO of the Canada Pension Plan Investment Board called western Canada home to “some of the most responsibly produced conventional energy in the world”. Would you agree with that statement?

3:50 p.m.

Member, Canada’s Expert Panel on Sustainable Finance, As an Individual

Barbara Zvan

Yes. However, they still produce significant—

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Dan Mazier Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB

That's good. You gave me a yes.

3:50 p.m.

Member, Canada’s Expert Panel on Sustainable Finance, As an Individual

Barbara Zvan

—scope 1 and scope 3 emissions.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Dan Mazier Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB

Mr. Chisholm.

3:50 p.m.

Member, Canada’s Expert Panel on Sustainable Finance, As an Individual

Andrew Chisholm

It's very clear that as a country, we're economically dependent on a well-functioning energy system.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Dan Mazier Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB

It's a simple yes or no. Would you agree with that statement?

3:50 p.m.

Member, Canada’s Expert Panel on Sustainable Finance, As an Individual

Andrew Chisholm

I am not an expert in that particular field, but we are starting with a more carbon-intense series of processes than other parts of the world are. I understand we have made significant progress over time and should be commended for that progress. I also understand we have a long way to go.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Dan Mazier Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB

Ms. Zvan, you're the CEO of the University Pension Plan of Ontario. The University Pension Plan of Ontario has excluded the mining of thermal coal from its investments. How many emissions have been directly reduced because of this decision?

3:50 p.m.

Member, Canada’s Expert Panel on Sustainable Finance, As an Individual

Barbara Zvan

It's hard to say because part of it is that we're not buying it.