Fisheries Committee on April 30th, 2024

[Tim Gerberding]

I'm not opposed to hatcheries. As I said, I think hatcheries may have a role to play. However, the Yukon River Salmon Agreement actually contains very clear direction to concentrate on the wild stocks. Artificial propagation is not an excuse for poor management.

From what I have observed, I'm not aware that hatcheries are particularly successful at producing large chinook salmon. Certainly the observations we've had in Yukon suggest that hatchery fish are considerably smaller. I'm not sure we're at a place where we have to revert to hatcheries. I think we're almost there, but per the Yukon River Salmon Agreement, first, efforts have to be made to preserve the wild stocks. If that doesn't work, then obviously we'll have to go to hatcheries.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

You mentioned the effect of mining on the rivers out in Yukon. Where would you place the blame and what would you like to see going forward regarding control over what's happening in the mining industry?

[Tim Gerberding]

I don't necessarily want to place blame.

The Yukon Placer Mining Act came into effect in 1906. It has essentially been unchanged since that time. Under the Yukon free entry system, miners can stake claims virtually anywhere—not on first nation land, but virtually anywhere else. There is a very strong connection between the right to work and the right to locate. In other words, once you stake a claim, you have very strong rights to proceed to mine that claim.

I think that arrangement has disappeared in many parts of the world. I don't think that's appropriate in 2024, in the 21st century. I think there is a lot of money to be generated from mining gold, but other than that, what benefit does it provide to society? I think if we're going to save our natural resources, we have to begin to prioritize conservation above making money.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

I'm sure, Mr. Gerberding, you have heard about the success that Washington and Oregon have had in bringing back steelhead and salmon populations in their rivers through the work they have done to create better access to waterways around hydro dams. The reports are coming out and they are pretty good. In addition, they have been harvesting some pinnipeds.

Do you think those two factors—the predation by pinnipeds and the hydro dams—could have quite a bit to do with the decline you've had there? Is there work that can be done by the hydro people to make things better?

[Tim Gerberding]

Absolutely, there is.

I'm not aware of really successful chinook salmon hatchery programs. Maybe I'm simply unaware. The Whitehorse dam was built 75 years ago. It's up for relicensing.

There's a similar dam on the Mayo River, which is an important chinook spawning river. The Mayo dam has absolutely extirpated all of the salmon that used to spawn above it, which I understand was quite a few, according to the Na-Cho Nyak Dun. There was no fish ladder built 75 years ago and no allowance for out-migrating. Of course, if the fish can't get up, they don't need to come back down.

I think there are definitely ways to improve those facilities. Hopefully, as part of the dam relicensing, that will happen. Is it going to be the panacea? I don't think so, but it can certainly help. My view of the world is that at this point we have to do everything we can to save the salmon, because they are disappearing before our eyes.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

It might be worth your while, Mr. Gerberding, to check out what's happened on the Exploits River. They have a big hydro dam there and they've made great leaps and bounds in the last 20 years to revive the salmon stocks, in addition to having a hatchery for a number of years.

Chief Frost, do you have anything—

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

I'm going to cut you off there, Mr. Small, because you have eight seconds left. You're not going to get your question out, let alone get an answer. We'll go on.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Can't I get a little time?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

No. There you go.

We'll go now to Mr. Hanley for six minutes or less.

[Brendan Hanley, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Thanks very much.

Tim, I'll go back to you. I'm going to try to be very short with questions and answers.

You mentioned improving the facilities when it comes to the dams. We know that this is under discussion, especially with the relicensing. When you say “improve” the facilities, could you give one or two examples of what you would recommend?

[Tim Gerberding]

Yes, and on that, the Yukon Salmon Sub-Committee hired expert assistance to help us. There's a certain design of turbine that has been shown to be less damaging for salmon. I think those could be replaced.

I think the spillway that exists right now just goes straight down, and I understand that you can build a graduated spillway that makes it easier for the fry to out-migrate. I also think the size and construction of the fish ladder can be substantially improved. As I said, that hasn't changed in 75 years.

There are technologies now that allow us to build a better fish ladder and a better spillway.

[Brendan Hanley, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

To change the subject slightly to the ocean, you mentioned I think three important factors: hatcheries, ocean temperature, and the pollock fishery and, presumably, its bycatch, which you briefly mentioned. If you were looking at a rebuilding plan that's international, how would you address any of these ocean factors? Or could you?

[Tim Gerberding]

I think we can. I'm optimistic about that.

Like Pauline, I'm on the Yukon River Panel, and I can tell you that the Alaska members of the panel and the Canadian members are really speaking with a single voice when it comes to issues with hatcheries, climate change and the pollock fisheries.

I think we have a real opportunity for international co-operation through this seven-year agreement that's been signed. Maybe we have to task some of the ministers with doing international lobbying to reduce the number of hatcheries, for example. I think those are the steps that we have to take if we're going to save the wild chinook salmon.

[Brendan Hanley, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

On that note, when I had the opportunity to go to Washington with members of the Yukon Salmon Sub-Committee, as you know, and with Chief Tom, I thought the discussions were very productive, and I really see opportunity for a collaborative international approach.

Chief Frost, as you said, this is the window of opportunity to build on the seven-year moratorium and get a rebuilding plan, so I have a couple of further questions for you. You mentioned the low water levels in the tributaries of the Porcupine. There was even an article about so-called dewatering. Can you maybe talk a bit about dewatering? What is that? What effect does it have? How can you address that?

[Chief Pauline Frost]

Already, the fishing branch, or Ni'iinlii Njik, park is unique. The river itself disappears for five kilometres and then reappears. It has high oxygenation. It has the headwaters, so it's a very unique ecosystem.

In that regard, the temperatures and climate are changing two times faster than anywhere else in north Yukon. In the north, we're seeing that on the river. We've seen low waters. We've seen more forest fires in the area. Last summer, we had 20 forest fires surrounding my community. We had to evacuate, which is an indication of how low the water and the rivers were.

With dewatering, essentially the water disappears and the salmon fry are stranded and won't reproduce. Is that new? That's a new phenomenon. We don't have an explanation, but there's big work being done, thanks to Canada for sponsoring Vuntut Gwitchin. We'll see what the results are from that exercise, from doing some scientific analysis on that.

[Brendan Hanley, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Tim, I have a bit of time left, so perhaps I can ask you to make a distinction here. To my understanding, there are two basic types of hatcheries. There are commercial hatcheries and then there are conservation or community-based hatcheries. Is that valid? Can you briefly elaborate on that?

[Tim Gerberding]

I can. Thanks for that.

The hatcheries that are pouring billions of fish into the north Pacific are commercial hatcheries. Most of the salmon you buy in the grocery store these days is coming from fish that returned to those hatcheries. Pink salmon are especially prolific. They grow very fast, so they're a favourite. You also have what we refer to as a compensation hatchery at the Whitehorse dam, which is to compensate for the damage they're doing to the wild salmon.

Then there are conservation hatcheries. These are, generally speaking, small hatcheries that are very specific. They're focused on a single stock, you could say. I could use as an example McIntyre Creek near Whitehorse, a stream that at one time had a very prolific chinook salmon return. Now there are practically none. A conservation hatchery would seek to take brood stock, incubate them in a good place and then plant them into McIntyre Creek for a cycle, which we will call seven years, in hopes of restarting that run.

My understanding is that you have to be very careful with that sort of hatchery. The fish that are coming back from the hatchery have what are called epigenetic effects. The genes are actually affected. If those fish start to breed with the wild fish, over time and over several cycles, you can actually compromise the genetics of the wild fish.

Conservation fisheries can be, I think, very effective in restoring the runs over a short period, usually one cycle, for a specific stream. That's what I understand a conservation hatchery to be.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Hanley.

We will now go to Madam Desbiens for six minutes or less.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm very pleased that Ms. Bergeron is with us today. I thank her very much for being here. It will give us an idea of what is happening in Quebec. She and I may actually be related, since my husband has Bergerons in his family. It's particularly nice to have Ms. Bergeron here today, since we have people from the other side of Canada as well. We'll be able to make comparisons.

Ms. Bergeron, earlier you were talking about decentralized decision-making. I would like to make a comparison with the situation of redfish, mackerel and herring fishers. I know that theirs is a commercial fishery, but they're concerned that they are not being heard by the government and that they can't contribute to the process even though they are very familiar with the situation on the ground.

If I understand correctly, it's easier in Quebec, probably because there is no commercial fishery, only recreational fishing. Is that correct?

[Myriam Bergeron]

As you say, there is no commercial salmon fishery in Quebec. As a result, fisheries management was established with a focus on recreational fisheries and traditional indigenous fisheries. However, the framework that applies to the province as a whole helps us classify all the rivers, identify the outlines that apply to all of them and establish a decision-making framework based on data specific to each river.

Since management powers are delegated to established local organizations, these bodies are able to generate revenue and have an organizational capacity that enables them to work very democratically with local communities to give them a say in decision-making. It also enables them to collect and understand scientific data, and share them with other delegated organizations and the provincial government.

As a result, there is a lot of flexibility which makes it possible to adapt specifically to the situation of a particular river. This is very important in the context of restoring or conserving wild populations, because each river has its own characteristics and each community may also have its own projects. We talked about mining and aquaculture, for example. The economic aspect is always important to communities, but we must also ensure that decisions are made in a way that is consistent with the conservation of our ecosystems. As a rule, it is a factor that contributes to their resilience.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

I find what you are saying interesting because it helps us understand that the closer management is to the ground, the more skills people have to manage on a case-by-case basis.

[Myriam Bergeron]

Absolutely. That is in the recommendations, especially in terms of all the challenges we are facing, such as climate change, sound management and problems related to wildlife and the environment. This type of model ensures a balance specific to each region. It's really important.

In that sense, we have incorporated land management philosophies into our way of doing things. It certainly reflects the major recommendations, not only to make decisions in the right place, but also to ensure more consistency overall.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Thank you. What you are saying is very interesting.

What are your thoughts on aquaculture? How can aquaculture change the dynamics of your management of salmon rivers? What is the main threat to salmon right now in Quebec?

[Myriam Bergeron]

I found the testimony from Dr. Tim Gerberding on aquaculture to be very interesting. He's right, a distinction must be made between food aquaculture and conservation stock aquaculture.

In Quebec, there is no food aquaculture. It's a big problem in eastern Canada because it has a very significant impact on wild fish populations, not only salmon but also a host of other species. Therefore, we focus on the development of land-based closed containment commercial aquaculture.

In terms of conservation stocking, I think it's really important, again, to have structures that allow for decentralized decision-making, because the results are extremely variable from one place to another. The success factors are difficult to establish and are specific to each river. Sustainability factors to support a salmon population through conservation stocking are also specific to each river and are very difficult to maintain over time. We are really talking about habitat health and connectedness in time and space. We have to make sure that each salmon life cycle takes place in a suitable habitat.

Earlier, we talked about genetics. There are conservation stocking methods that mitigate the risk of genetic modification in a given population.

Regarding the main threat—

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Madam Desbiens. Your time has gone over.

We'll go to Ms. Barron for six minutes or less.