Evidence of meeting #99 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was chinook.
A recording is available from Parliament.
5:05 p.m.
Liberal
Brendan Hanley Liberal Yukon, YT
Thanks very much.
Mr. Zimmerman, we've had many conversations, of course. We've travelled together to Washington, D.C., along with Chief Tom, who was on the previous panel, and Senator Duncan.
One of the things I remember that most struck me in our conversations was that you said what's happening in the Yukon River is like a harbinger for the entire west coast salmon. I wonder if you could talk about that for a bit.
5:05 p.m.
Fish and Wildlife Consultant and Pacific Salmon Treaty Panel Member, Big Fish Little Fish Consultants, As an Individual
Thank you, MP Hanley. I appreciate the question.
Absolutely, and one of the things we realize.... I happen to be in Vancouver right now at the Pacific Salmon Treaty negotiations for another chapter, so I have the unique advantage of being able to see these various panels and fisheries along the west coast. I mean, the Yukon is unique. It's a northern species. They're uniquely adapted to the north. We're seeing declines across the entire west coast. These are large prolific chinook that obviously are special to everyone—everyone's salmon is special.
We have an opportunity with these fish. If we can actually conserve and rebuild these fish, I think we have an opportunity to be a template for essentially what will happen. There are multiple active commercial interests along the west coast for Pacific salmon. We're largely talking about subsistence fishers that are united on this front. There are similar international interests. There could be cohesion in that regard. I guess from my perspective I think it's worth.... We have an opportunity to essentially support these northern species, which I think can trickle down and provide that impetus for saving all the stocks along the Pacific coast.
5:05 p.m.
Liberal
Brendan Hanley Liberal Yukon, YT
Thanks very much.
Elizabeth, I'll move over to you. Given your position with the Council of Yukon First Nations, I know that you're very familiar with governance. We don't have time to go over the intricacies of governance, but maybe you could talk about the importance of understanding between the levels of government and how important it is that we understand that relationship, especially considering the Umbrella Final Agreement.
5:05 p.m.
Council of Yukon First Nations
Yes, and I know that Tim will speak more on the Yukon Salmon Sub-Committee and the management role that plays at a later date. However, it's really important that governments work together and that we have a good relationship—Yukon first nations' governments, the Yukon territorial government and then the federal government as well—particularly around the work with the Yukon River Panel. We need to all be saying the same things and moving towards the same goal. I feel like we're currently doing that, and we're making great headway. Even just a year ago, we weren't all moving in the same direction, and you can see what a difference it has made for the salmon on the salmon front.
It's really key, and having first nations advisers at the Yukon River Panel and having those direct connections has been absolutely fantastic. It really does allow people along the river to have an input on those processes, which means that people buy into them more, which is exactly what we need.
5:10 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald
Thank you, Mr. Hanley.
We'll now go to Madame Desbiens for six minutes or less, please.
5:10 p.m.
Bloc
Caroline Desbiens Bloc Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île dOrléans—Charlevoix, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I have just a couple of questions, and I'm going to share my time with Mr. Hanley, because this is an area of particular interest to him and it's all a little far away from Quebec. That said, Quebec has salmon, too, as well as other issues that are similar at times.
Mr. Zimmermann, you talked about bycatch. I heard someone else talk to you about the pollock fishery, which was removing billions of tonnes of biomass.
Does that factor continue to have a serious impact on the biomass as a whole, as we've heard from the witnesses today?
5:10 p.m.
Fish and Wildlife Consultant and Pacific Salmon Treaty Panel Member, Big Fish Little Fish Consultants, As an Individual
Yes. I will also admit that I'm not an expert in this particular area, but I do know that over the years it was a significant issue for Yukon River chinook. The practices improved. There were observers. There were various things that they did to ensure that those catches were minimized. My understanding is that they have crept up again, so this is something that we're always trying to work on and make sure that we advocate for.
I think there are some significant high-seas issues that the Yukon and Alaska, Canada and the U.S., can align together on—this area of fishery, which is something that Chief Rhonda Pitka brought forward.
Again, it is one of those things that we have control over. It is very much salt in the wound, in that there are still some of these high-seas commercial fisheries taking place while all subsistence fishers on the Yukon River in Alaska and the Yukon are.... In principle, that in itself is probably the deepest wound that we're dealing with, and frankly it's quite offensive to everyone on the in-river who's not able to fish.
5:10 p.m.
Bloc
Caroline Desbiens Bloc Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île dOrléans—Charlevoix, QC
That's kind of what we're seeing on the east coast.
Mr. Hanley, the rest of my time is yours.
5:10 p.m.
Liberal
Brendan Hanley Liberal Yukon, YT
This is great.
I didn't get to ask Professor Demuth any questions.
You have a history that goes back to your residence in Old Crow in the Yukon, I believe, so you're very familiar with the Yukon. However, you're also a researcher, and from what I understand, you have experience in researching the biological and hydrological life of the Yukon River watershed.
I wonder if you could talk about the overall ecological impact and importance of the chinook salmon as a flagship species of the river system and also of the boreal forest.
5:10 p.m.
Dean's Associate Professor of History and Environment and Society, Brown University, As an Individual
Yes, absolutely.
I think one of the most amazing facts about chinook that encapsulates just how important they are is that, if you do isotopic research into boreal forest tree species—spruce and other species that line the banks—you find the nitrogen isotopes that come from chinook salmon, because one of the major things they do in their life cycle is bring the nutrients of the Bering Sea thousands of kilometres inland to ecosystems that otherwise don't have access to them.
They're absolutely critical to the basic ecological function of this entire ecosystem in a way that's difficult to underestimate. We don't know what a Yukon River watershed looks like if it does not have the nitrogen that fish carry up and give not just to the plants but to the entire food web, from very small invertebrates in the stream systems all the way up through to bears, eagles and the kind of wildlife we like to have on our calendars.
They're truly critical in that sense. The ability for these fish to maintain this nutrient cycle is really fundamental to the functioning of the river, biologically and culturally.
5:10 p.m.
Liberal
Brendan Hanley Liberal Yukon, YT
Thank you.
This is a question for Chief Pitka, and I feel like I'm asking this on behalf of Mr. Small, who's not currently at the committee. Could you talk about seal predation, and whether that is an issue that affects west coast salmon species at all?
5:15 p.m.
Chief, Beaver Village Council
I'm not really sure. The place where we live on the Yukon River is so far in the interior that we don't actually get seals, so I don't have enough information to answer that.
5:15 p.m.
Liberal
Brendan Hanley Liberal Yukon, YT
Does anyone have information to answer that? I know it's a question that has been brought up.
Ms. Demuth.
5:15 p.m.
Dean's Associate Professor of History and Environment and Society, Brown University, As an Individual
I've never heard of seals identified on the Alaskan side. There has been discussions of beluga whales, which spend a lot of time down by the mouth of the Yukon and certainly eat salmon. My understanding is that they are not at the level that has been discussed on the Canadian coast, however.
5:15 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald
Thank you, Mr. Hanley. I'm sure Mr. Small will be delighted to know you brought up seals and not sea lice.
We'll now go to Ms. Barron for six minutes or less, please.
5:15 p.m.
NDP
Lisa Marie Barron NDP Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you to all the witnesses here.
Should I be pausing?
5:15 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald
Please wait one second, Ms. Barron.
That's the 30-minute bell. We'll certainly get in the last round, if everyone is in agreement. Can we go to 5:30? There are 29 minutes left before the vote.
5:15 p.m.
Some hon. members
Agreed.
February 15th, 2024 / 5:15 p.m.
NDP
Lisa Marie Barron NDP Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC
That's great. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you to the witnesses.
I was just reflecting on the fact that I wish our witnesses were spread out over multiple meetings, because there's so much great testimony. It feels very rushed, and it feels like we're not able to really ask questions to the degree that I would like to. I can't speak on behalf of my fellow committee members, but for that, it's unfortunate.
I want to reiterate and ask that you please send along written information. I know the chair will say that, but I hope I can pick from the written components to support the recommendations moving forward.
There has been so much great testimony provided.
Chief Pitka, you talked about the importance of subsistence harvesting and being told that, despite accounting for less than 1% of the statewide harvesting, this is where the finger was being pointed for where the problem lay. Can you tell us a bit about that and how important it is to have that traditional knowledge when making decisions on how to best move forward?
5:15 p.m.
Chief, Beaver Village Council
Yes. Thank you for that question.
The total harvest take of the chinook salmon in the Yukon River has traditionally been 25% of the Canadian harvest share for the United States for the upper Yukon River. Historically it's been such a low number that it's been about 10 years since it has been adequate to meet the need for our subsistence, according to the computation on the State of Alaska website. They have all of that information readily available there, but I can send some more detailed written testimony around it. I could go on for 16 hours, but you have about 29 minutes.
The traditional knowledge around that is that we take only what we need from the Yukon River, especially our subsistence fishermen. Our traditional way of life has been greatly challenged by the lack of fish. Part of what we know about the fisheries and the challenges associated with them is that it's never been our harvest that's been the culprit, that's been the problem. It's always been outside influences, whether regulations, lack of salmon due to climate change or, in the 1900s, having a net put across the Yukon River so nobody could get fish. It's always been outside people who have impacted our harvest greatly, and that's been a note of contention.
5:15 p.m.
NDP
Lisa Marie Barron NDP Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC
Thank you very much.
Ms. Demuth, I believe you were talking about old tools being used and the problems with these old tools being used. I believe you said that leads to “invasive” harvesting, but that's a word that I wrote down that I can't quite differentiate.
Can you tell us a little bit more about what you were speaking about when you spoke to that in your testimony?