Evidence of meeting #50 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was data.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Paul Thompson  Deputy Minister, Department of Public Works and Government Services
Mollie Royds  Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Procurement Branch, Department of Public Works and Government Services
Ehren Cory  Chief Executive Officer, Canada Infrastructure Bank

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

I call the meeting to order.

Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to meeting number 50—our gold anniversary meeting—of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates, a.k.a. the mighty OGGO or, as I call it, the only committee that matters.

Pursuant to the motion adopted by the committee on Wednesday, January 18, 2022, the committee is meeting on the study of the federal government consulting contracts awarded to McKinsey & Company.

We have our minister of PSPC, Public Services and Procurement Canada. Welcome back. We give the floor to you for five minutes.

3:40 p.m.

Markham—Stouffville Ontario

Liberal

Helena Jaczek LiberalMinister of Public Services and Procurement

Thank you so much, Mr. Chair.

Good afternoon to all committee members. Thank you for inviting me today as you conduct this important study.

Let me begin by acknowledging that we are gathered on the unceded territory of the Algonquin and Anishinabe peoples.

With me today are my deputy minister, Paul Thompson, and the associate assistant deputy minister of procurement, Mollie Royds.

I'd like to begin by saying that I believe the growth in the use of consultants in the public service is an important question. That's why the Prime Minister has asked me and Minister Fortier to review the government's practices. I also believe that these important questions can and should be asked and answered with the thoughtfulness and respect that Canadians deserve.

As this committee undertakes its work, my colleagueTreasury Board president Mona Fortier and I are also undertaking a full review of all Government of Canada purchases from McKinsey & Company.

Under Minister Fortier's direction, the Treasury Board Secretariat will require federal departments to review their contracts with McKinsey through their internal audit teams to assess if contracts complied with Treasury Board policies and departmental internal control frameworks.

On the PSPC side, my officials have already begun a preliminary assessment of the 24 contracts that fall under our department as the central purchaser. These contracts will also be more formally reviewed by the departmental internal audit team. In addition, to ensure that there is a more independent review, I have written to the procurement ombudsman to ask him to review the procurement processes associated with the awarding of contracts to McKinsey & Company by all federal departments and agencies.

I know this committee has also adopted a motion that calls on the Auditor General to conduct a performance and value for money audit.

While we have found no indication to date that any rules or policies were broken, I also know that there is always room for improvement. I welcome these reviews, which may help determine what further adjustments or refinements should be undertaken to continue to strengthen the fairness, openness and transparency of federal procurement practices.

Of the 24 contracts awarded to McKinsey by PSPC since 2011, three of them, worth more than 50% of the total value, were awarded through open, fair and transparent competition.

With the exception of one low dollar value contract, the remainder were awarded as call-ups through what is referred to as a “National Master Standing Offer”.

I recognize that there may be some confusion related to the terms standing offer and supply arrangements, which I would like to clear up.

Standing offers and supply arrangements are not contracts and do not guarantee a company future business with the government. They are administrative tools that streamline procurement for departments and agencies, and reduce red tape and costs for governments and businesses. A company's status on a standing offer or supply arrangement list is reviewed regularly and can be revoked at any time if it no longer qualifies.

In addition, standing offers have expiry dates, as these are instruments whereby goods or services are provided at pre-established prices.

Supply arrangements, on the other hand, do not have expiry dates. That is because supply arrangements are established to allow for regular refreshes of qualified suppliers and to allow competition among pre-qualified suppliers for each contract.

For administrative and technological reasons, an arbitrary end-date—far into the future—is used when reporting supply arrangements on our website.

To be clear, there are no 80-year contracts with McKinsey. That said, I have asked my officials to address the way in which these standing offers are reported in order to avoid future confusion.

I look forward to working with you and I am pleased to answer your questions.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

Thank you, Minister. I appreciate your brevity in the opening statement.

We'll start with Ms. Kusie for six minutes, please.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for being here today.

You mentioned what the Prime Minister asked you and your colleague Minister Fortier to do. On what day did he ask you to investigate, please? What was the date?

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Helena Jaczek Liberal Markham—Stouffville, ON

I would have to consult my schedule.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB

Okay.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Helena Jaczek Liberal Markham—Stouffville, ON

I'm not exactly clear which day. I think it was about two weeks ago.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB

All right. If you could come back to the committee with a specific date, that would be great.

What is the total number in dollars that Public Services and Procurement Canada has contracted to McKinsey & Company since November 4, 2015? What's that number, please?

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Helena Jaczek Liberal Markham—Stouffville, ON

I will turn to my deputy minister, who has all the charts in front of him.

3:40 p.m.

Paul Thompson Deputy Minister, Department of Public Works and Government Services

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

The total number of contracts is 24. The value of those contracts is $104.6 million. To clarify, those contracts were administered by PSPC, not by other departments and agencies.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB

That's since November 4, 2015.

3:45 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Public Works and Government Services

Paul Thompson

That is correct.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB

Thank you.

A January 16, 2023, Globe and Mail article by Bill Curry says that the federal government “awarded 23 contracts to McKinsey & Company since 2015 with a total...of $101.4-million”. This was much higher than the $66.1 million that was disclosed to date through the Public Accounts of Canada.

Why is the value that Public Services and Procurement Canada presented different from what has been disclosed in the public accounts?

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Helena Jaczek Liberal Markham—Stouffville, ON

Again, I will turn to the deputy.

3:45 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Public Works and Government Services

Paul Thompson

Thank you for that question.

The public accounts would be reporting on contracts on an expenditure basis, not on the basis of establishing contracts. Those are two different ways in which this kind of activity would be tracked.

Again, there's a difference between the contracts that would be administered by PSPC as the central contracting authority versus ones that would be managed individually by other departments, and disclosed as well by those departments if those contracts are over $10,000 in value.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB

How much in contracts has been awarded to McKinsey & Company for the 2022-23 fiscal year, please?

3:45 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Public Works and Government Services

Paul Thompson

That number I don't have at my fingertips. I will turn to my colleague on that. We could provide that even before the end of the meeting, I'm sure.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB

Okay. Sure. I'll move on, then. Thank you.

As we've seen in the value in contracts awarded to McKinsey & Company, this number keeps climbing. We were first told a number in the sixties, and it became fiftyfold and then beyond fiftyfold.

How, Minister, can you be sure that this is the true number when you're essentially investigating yourself? How do you have such confidence in this?

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Helena Jaczek Liberal Markham—Stouffville, ON

Clearly, I rely on public officials to compile the correct numbers. As I understand it, because there are many other departments that request consulting services through us, this is a fairly complex matter.

Perhaps our associate deputy minister could clarify further some of the difficulties in terms of compiling this information.

3:45 p.m.

Mollie Royds Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Procurement Branch, Department of Public Works and Government Services

Thank you very much for the question, Mr. Chair.

As was indicated, what we have been providing is in relation to the contracts awarded by PSPC. These are reflective of the point in time within our systems.

You made reference earlier in the question to $101 million and the fact that this number increases. That was reflective of a recently awarded contract that had been updated in the system after the particular media release.

We have provided now the full information on contracts that have been awarded to date. Those are based on full contract value as well as what could be many ongoing contracts or multi-year contracts. That would be another reason that what you might see in the public accounts in actual expenditures against the contract might be different.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB

Thank you, Ms. Royds.

Is the position of associate assistant deputy minister the position that signs and approves the contracts with McKinsey, please?

3:45 p.m.

Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Procurement Branch, Department of Public Works and Government Services

Mollie Royds

Thank you for the question.

Again, when—

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB

It's yes or no. Is that position, your position, the one that signs and approves the contracts?

3:45 p.m.

Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Procurement Branch, Department of Public Works and Government Services

Mollie Royds

The positions that would sign and approve contracts would be done based on a combination of value, complexity and risk. We have delegated authorities that are specific to certain levels of risk, complexity and value.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB

Okay.

Who was in the position of associate assistant deputy minister at the procurement branch when the contracts were signed with McKinsey? Were you in that position, yes or no? Who was in the position when the contracts were signed, please?