Evidence of meeting #103 for Justice and Human Rights in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was monday.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Isabelle Desharnais  Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice
Matthias Villetorte  Senior Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice

8:15 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Lena Metlege Diab

Good morning, everyone.

Thank you for being here this morning.

I call the meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 103 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights.

Pursuant to the order adopted by the House on February 14, 2024, the committee is meeting in public to continue its clause-by-clause study of Bill C-273, an act to amend the Criminal Code, Corinne’s Quest and the protection of children.

Today's meeting is taking place in hybrid format pursuant to the Standing Orders. Members are attending in person in the room and remotely using the Zoom application.

I have a few instructions. I believe I read them last time, but I'm required to read again about avoiding audio feedback. Before we begin, I would like to remind members and other meeting participants in the room of the following important preventative measures. To prevent disruptive and potentially harmful audio feedback incidents that can cause injuries, all in person participants are reminded to keep their earpieces away from all microphones at all times.

As indicated in the communiqué from the Speaker to all members on Monday, April 29, the following measures have been taken to help prevent audio feedback incidents.

All earpieces have been replaced by a model that greatly reduces the probability of audio feedback. The new earpieces are black whereas the former earpieces were gray. Please only use a black, approved earpiece. By default, all unused earpieces will be unplugged at the start of the meeting.

When you are not using your earpiece, please place it face down in the middle of the sticker for this purpose that you will find on the table. Please consult the cards on the table for guidelines to prevent audio feedback incidents.

The room layout has been adjusted to increase the distance between microphones and reduce the chance of feedback from an ambient earpiece. These measures are in place so that we can conduct our business without interruption and protect the health and safety of all participants, including the interpreters.

Thank you for your co-operation.

For members in the room, please raise your hand if you wish to speak. For members on Zoom, please use the “raise hand” function. The clerk and I will manage the speaking order as best we can, and we appreciate your understanding in this regard.

I now want to welcome back our witnesses from the justice department who will help us with technical questions on Bill C-273 . We have Matthias Villetorte, senior counsel, criminal law policy section, and Ms. Isabelle Desharnais, counsel, criminal law policy section.

Thank you for being with us.

We're now ready to start clause-by-clause, and I will recognize Mr. Moore.

8:20 a.m.

Conservative

Rob Moore Conservative Fundy Royal, NB

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Just before we start, I want to quickly flag something. I just want to take a minute of our time.

We're experimenting with this new layout, and my feedback so far is that we have committee support individuals who are not at the table when they used to be at the table. Sometimes we want to talk about something, but we're three miles away from each other.

This is a dramatic change from what we are used to. I would say that witnesses are almost twice as far away as they were before. If, as we review this and we get feedback on it, there's any way to have it somewhere between where we were and where we are, if that would still accomplish the goals we have on audio feedback, I would certainly hope that we quickly provide feedback on this process.

To me, there may be an upside on the audio, but there's definitely a downside in the experience. Sometimes we have a number of individuals who want to watch committee proceedings. We've had some meetings where maybe four or five rows are taken up by individuals who want to watch. This format certainly limits that as well. I know we've only done it a couple of times. That's my initial feedback. I don't know if there's a process to provide that, but that's my two cents.

8:20 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Lena Metlege Diab

Thank you, Mr. Moore.

This is the second time we've done it this way at this committee. It started on Monday. There is a process. I am a member of the liaison committee. They called a meeting yesterday, which was pretty quick, to get feedback from chairs. I'm sure they'll do it again because it is a new process.

As the chair of this committee, I appreciate feedback from members. When the liaison committee meets again, because they will, I'll be able to report what members are telling me.

I appreciate that you like all the members to be close together. That's how this committee has functioned since we started, two-plus years ago. That's very nice. Thank you.

I will say one thing, though. I asked about this today. For those who may not need translation—no English or French—if you don't plug this in, I guess you can put it wherever you want on the table. It's only when it's plugged in.

However, it's also good for volume. You're right. We are a bit more distanced, and sometimes I find it hard to hear, especially if there are members speaking over each other at the same time.

Thank you very much.

I have a list. To be quite honest though, is the list about this or is it about clause-by-clause?

Mr. Van Popta.

8:20 a.m.

Conservative

Tako Van Popta Conservative Langley—Aldergrove, BC

I'm on clause-by-clause.

8:20 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Lena Metlege Diab

Thank you.

What about you, Mr. Jivani?

8:20 a.m.

Conservative

Jamil Jivani Conservative Durham, ON

I'm also on clause-by-clause.

8:20 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Lena Metlege Diab

Thank you.

What about you, Madam Gladu?

8:20 a.m.

Conservative

Marilyn Gladu Conservative Sarnia—Lambton, ON

Yes. I'm on clause-by-clause.

8:20 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Lena Metlege Diab

Thank you.

What about you, Mr. Garrison?

8:20 a.m.

NDP

Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC

For the sins in my past life, I'm a member of the liaison committee. The debate was quite fulsome yesterday, I can assure you. A lot of these problems were raised, including the ones you mentioned and including my pet peeve. As someone who uses my left hand and left ear, this is never getting way over here on my right. I can guarantee people that. There were other practical problems.

A number of those were raised, and it was acknowledged that this is an experiment to try to reduce the threats. We'll do our best to make sure that the interpreters are safe, but this is a work in progress. This is not the final solution.

8:20 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Lena Metlege Diab

Thank you.

We will now commence. Let me give you some instructions, although I'm sure you're all very learned in how we do clause-by-clause.

We're resuming debate on clause 1 and CPC-1, which was moved by MP Moore at the meeting on Monday, April 29.

Mr. Van Popta, it's over to you.

(On clause 1)

8:25 a.m.

Conservative

Tako Van Popta Conservative Langley—Aldergrove, BC

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Just to put this in perspective, today at the justice committee we were supposed to be starting our study on anti-Semitism. That is an issue that is front and centre in Canadian society today, given the noisy, disruptive and even violent protests and encampments celebrating the atrocities of Hamas against innocent Israelis on October 7, 2023, and denying Israel's right to defend itself against an enemy dedicated to its destruction. That's a very important study and I thank Mr. Housefather for bringing that motion forward.

Instead today we are continuing our study on a private member's bill that would repeal the section of the Criminal Code that says teachers and parents can use reasonable force in limited circumstances to restrain, control or express symbolic disapproval of bad behaviour. This is not corporal punishment, as we heard from several witnesses, but that's what the topic is.

We would have finished this study, I think, at our last meeting if the Liberal members hadn't dropped a bombshell on us at the last minute by saying they would be introducing yet another bill which will be designed, apparently, to correct the deficiencies in the bill that is in front of us right now. They're recommending, I believe, that we approve this flawed piece of legislation and that they will fix it later. We don't know how much later or how they are going to fix it. I think they're just saying, “trust us.”

Madam Speaker, I, in good conscience, cannot support flawed legislation based on a promise that maybe things will get better in the future. The Conservative members of this committee have put forward what, I think, are some common-sense amendments to fix the flaws in the bill that is before us right now. We are supported in our proposed amendments by credible witnesses such as Daniel Zekveld and John Sikkema of ARPA, who gave testimony last week. Their recommendation was basically to codify the 2004 Supreme Court of Canada decision that upheld the constitutionality of section 43 of the Criminal Code. That court decision also gave further guidelines for teachers and parents, and our amendment is trying to capture that.

We also heard from Ms. Heidi Yetman, president of the Canadian Teachers' Federation, who stated that while her organization fully condemns any form of corporal punishment, it does not support the proposed legislation that is before us today in unamended form. She was worried about “the risk of unintended consequences that could make classrooms more unsafe.”

We also heard from Dr. Lisa Kelly, law professor at Queen's University. She looked at this issue more from a parent's perspective. She started her remarks, as the other witnesses did, by stating that she shared the goals of the bill, namely to “end the practice of physical punishment of children and to promote their best care at home and in school”, but, having said that, she expressed concerns and she gave a hypothetical example of a mother striking a child twice across the shins, instructing the child to sit in the car seat and be tied into the car seat for safety. She worried about what the consequences would be in a hypothetical situation like that if police were to be involved, and she said that in an acrimonious divorce or a difficult family situation, one parent could weaponize criminal law against the other for extraneous purposes. That's why she was saying that section 43 needed to remain.

I think it's helpful to quote just one sentence from the Supreme Court of Canada decision. This is what Chief Justice McLachlin said about section 43, the section that this private member's bill would repeal. She said,

The reality is that without s. 43, Canada's broad assault law would criminalize force falling far short of what we think of as corporal punishment, like placing an unwilling child in a chair for a five-minute “time-out”.

That brings me to our amendment, Conservative motion number 1. It is essentially, as I said, a codification of this Supreme Court decision, something Parliament, in my opinion, should have done 20 years ago. Maybe that's what the Liberals' new bill is going to address. I would say, rather than wait for a future bill that may or may not come, I would urge all the members of this committee to vote in favour of Conservative motion number 1.

Thank you.

8:30 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Lena Metlege Diab

Thank you, Mr. Van Popta.

I move now to Mr. Jivani.

May 2nd, 2024 / 8:30 a.m.

Conservative

Jamil Jivani Conservative Durham, ON

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I appreciate the opportunity as the newest member of the justice and human rights committee to share my perspective on why I will be voting against Bill C-273, unless we adopt amendment CPC-1.

CPC-1 addresses my primary concern, one that I've heard from many people, which is that Bill C-273 does not recognize or respect parental rights. Parental rights deserve recognition just as teacher safety does in any consideration of this bill and any consideration of section 43 of the Canadian Criminal Code. We have heard from many parents who are concerned about their place being completely excluded, undermined, disrespected and disregarded by the current Liberal government.

It's not hard to see why many moms and dads might feel that way. At the very top of the Liberal government there is a Prime Minister who has said quite clearly that he does not respect or recognize parental rights. In fact, last year in a conversation with Muslim parents, he said that parents who are concerned about their rights and parenting their children are being influenced by misinformation and disinformation by the American right wing. These comments could have been made just as easily to Christian parents, Jewish parents, Hindu parents or Sikh parents. It is a fundamental disrespect that the Prime Minister has for the rights of moms and dads.

It's not just the Liberal Party that has this chronic ideological problem. We have a member of our committee here from the NDP, Mr. Randall Garrison, who also said less than a year ago that there's no such thing as parental rights in Canada. This is not just morally incorrect; it is also factually incorrect. The most relevant Supreme Court of Canada decision on section 43 of the Criminal Code says quite clearly that the legislative purpose behind section 43 is parental rights. It is not an American right-wing idea. It is a Canadian idea recognized by our highest court in the land and recognized as an important objective behind section 43.

This is why we call the current government the NDP-Liberal government. It's quite obvious that these parties work together on ideological objectives that seem completely inconsistent with what the vast majority of Canadians actually want from their government. As a member of this committee, it is not hard for me to understand why so many moms and dads are concerned.

It's important we point out that without amendment 1 from the Conservative Party, we would actually be continuing the allowance of an ideological agenda that seems hell-bent on the marginalization of moms and dads in raising their children.

I'd also like to share a statement from a member of the Muskowekwan First Nation, a granddaughter of a residential school survivor, who responded to these concerns about parental rights when Liberal labour minister Seamus O'Regan was going on one of his famous tangents against Canadian parents. Ms. Mbarki said, “I am always very skeptical when the federal government gets involved in saying how parents should parent. Have we forgotten about residential schools? The 60's scoop? Off reserve child and family services? The system saw us as savages who couldn't/can't parent.”

This ugly side of our history is precisely why so many people are bothered, why so many people are concerned when the federal government and politicians in Ottawa treat moms and dads like they know better. When moms and dads are marginalized in important conversations about child protection and raising children, it is completely unacceptable.

For that reason, I cannot support Bill C-273 unless amendment CPC-1 is adopted. I highly encourage all members of this committee to reconsider how they are treating parents in our country right now and to consider amendment CPC-1 as a way that we may restore the place of moms and dads in this important conversation.

Thank you.

8:35 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Lena Metlege Diab

Go ahead, Madam Gladu.

8:35 a.m.

Conservative

Marilyn Gladu Conservative Sarnia—Lambton, ON

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I've had a chance to reflect on all the information that was brought forward in the meetings but especially in the Monday meeting.

Let me share with you the conclusions I've come to.

First, I went back and read the truth and reconciliation report and recommendation 6. In there, it was clear that the concerns expressed were to make sure that children didn't experience violence and that they didn't experience abuse. Certainly they were opposed to corporal punishment. Those were the clear points.

The last residential school closed in 1996, so the 2004 Supreme Court decision narrowed to what I think is the balance that would prevent the exact things that people who experienced horrible things in residential schools were worried about. Violence is illegal already. Assault and abuse are already illegal.

We've seen, from the narrow definition that the Supreme Court has put in, which is in our CPC amendment, that you're not allowed to use instruments—belts, rulers, that kind of thing—to hit a child and all of these protections that I think people were looking for.

The second thing I would say is that it was announced that the Minister of Justice saw a problem if we removed section 43 and didn't put back protections for parents and teachers. He sees that as an issue, and he has promised to come with legislation where they will put that protection in a different part of the Criminal Code.

This is problematic to me because, first of all, we haven't seen that legislation. We don't know what the timing of that legislation is. I don't think we can remove protections that are key without putting them back in.

Certainly, there is no way that we could approve this bill and know that we are removing protections for parents and teachers, protections that I would say have served us well. Since the Supreme Court came with this narrow decision, there have not been a lot of frivolous cases brought, and there have not been people who hugely objected to the interpretation here.

Until such time as the government comes forward with a bill that would add that protection somewhere else and remove it in section 43, I cannot, in good conscience, support Bill C-273.

We've heard lots of testimony from teachers, and I've certainly heard from parents across the country who believe in the use of reasonable force in the raising of their children and in protecting children, one from the other, as they get into their various scuffles. This is where I've landed after sombre reflection.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

8:35 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Lena Metlege Diab

Mr. Moore, you have the floor.

8:35 a.m.

Conservative

Rob Moore Conservative Fundy Royal, NB

Thank you, Madam Chair.

You know, I think my Conservative colleagues have said very well some of the really important reasons that, unless CPC-1 is passed, this would be an extremely dangerous direction to go in. If I had to sum it up, it's that government knows best. Families, teachers, they don't know what they're doing, but this Liberal government does.

I want to be very clear about a couple of things for Canadians who are interested in this legislation. Section 43 applies only to teachers and parents, so when we are talking about eliminating the defence contained in section 43, we're talking about eliminating it for only teachers and parents.

I have to mention, Madam Chair, that since 2015, murders are up 43% in Canada, which is the highest rate in 30 years; gang-related homicides are up 108%; violent gun crimes are up 101%; sexual assaults are up 71%; sex crimes against children are up 126%. With that as a backdrop, the crisis Canadians are facing with crime, in rural and urban areas, is affecting all of us. We're here today talking about a bill that would criminalize the actions of loving parents and caring teachers—teachers who are trying to have a safe classroom and parents who are trying to raise their children to be upstanding Canadians and citizens.

You don't have to take my word for it. We had witness testimony from the Teachers' Federation, from experienced classroom teachers, who said to us at this committee that, without the protection of section 43, when there is physical conflict in their classroom such as two students beating up on another student, the advice given to teachers would be to not intervene. Now, some teachers may intervene, but it will now be at their peril. Why? Because the passage of this private member's bill would eliminate a defence that is available to only parents and teachers.

When it comes to parents, individuals have tried to minimize the impact of repealing section 43. I will quote directly from the 2004 Supreme Court decision that specifically studied and dealt with a challenge to the constitutionality of section 43. In that leading Supreme Court of Canada decision, number one, the constitutionality of section 43 was upheld, so this measure in the Criminal Code, section 43, is no doubt constitutional; number two, it applies to only parents and teachers; and number three, the Supreme Court narrowed in and provided advice on what that defence includes.

It's extremely troubling to me that, when the proponent and sponsor of the bill was here at committee, all of the examples he used as to why this bill is necessary are not covered by section 43: They're outside the protections of section 43. He used the example of a student being punched in the face. The Supreme Court said specifically that hitting someone in the face is not protected by section 43. He used the example of someone being struck with an object multiple times. Again, the Supreme Court said specifically that hitting someone with an object is not protected by section 43. The example was used of pushing someone down the stairs. Again, these are ridiculous examples of clear abuse that all of us are against. I don't think there's anyone around this table who thinks someone should be able to push someone down the stairs. The Supreme Court of Canada doesn't believe someone should be able to push someone down the stairs. This is the basis on which this private member's bill was brought forward. It's completely based on misinformation, but the consequences are real.

I want to read directly from Chief Justice Beverley McLachlin, writing for the majority in this 2004 Supreme Court of Canada decision in which they warned Parliament 20 years ago that, if they remove section 43, parents would be criminalized and families would be ripped apart.

In that decision, and I'm quoting directly, this “risks ruining lives and breaking up families—a burden that in large part would be borne by children and outweigh any benefit derived from applying the criminal process.”

So the ruling of the Supreme Court is that if section 43 does not exist, it will lead to families being broken up. That's a pretty strong statement by the court. It is why CPC-1, our amendment, would fully implement and codify the ruling of the Supreme Court and the definitions they've applied to section 43, the parameters they've put around section 43, and the very constitutional findings that were made in that decision.

Madam Chair, myself and my colleagues stand against Bill C-273. It strips away the rights of teachers and of parents, it interferes in families and in classrooms, it's major government overreach and, in the words of the Supreme Court of Canada's leading decision, it risks breaking up families.

I would conclude my remarks there except to say what happened on Monday was extremely extraordinary. I've been a member of Parliament for quite some time. I can't recall a time before where we were dealing with a private member's bill that, if passed, would have the same effect in law as any piece of government legislation, and we find out at the last minute, as we're dealing with this bill: don't worry, we recognize there's a consequence to passing this bill and there's going to be government legislation. One, that may or may not happen. Two, what does the government legislation look like? We have no idea. Does it apply only to parents? Does it apply only to teachers? Is it expansive enough to protect teachers and parents from the impact and the fallout of the passage of Bill C-273?

This is not a proper way for us to conduct ourselves, as parliamentarians. I think we have to look at the legislation before us. We have to look at it and its impact in its entirety if we were to pass it. I urge members around this table, for the protection of parents and teachers, to pass CPC-1. But if we were to pass this bill without the Conservative amendment, it would put teachers and parents, and by extension children, at risk.

I'm speaking in favour of CPC-1 and speaking strongly against Bill C-273 unless it is amended.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

8:45 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Lena Metlege Diab

Mr. Garrison.

8:45 a.m.

NDP

Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

I don't want to prolong the debate on this. I have heard from numerous stakeholders, I guess I'll call them, who are interested in this bill, since Monday. I think it's safe to say that somewhere around 90 letters have been directed to the committee. There are three themes in most of those letters. One of these is, of course, that this is recommendation number 6 of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. Most organizations around this table and at the national level are committed to advancing truth and reconciliation and we are in danger in this debate of substituting our opinions about the effect of section 43 for those clearly stated opinions and understanding of the section that come from indigenous people. I think that's a danger here, and not passing this bill does not advance reconciliation.

The second thing is the Conservative amendment we're speaking to now actually says use of force can be used to educate and correct children. We know all the research on child psychology shows this is not an effective way of dealing with kids, and in fact what use of force with children does is teach them that, when frustration occurs, the proper response is violence or force. When Mr. Moore talks about the great trends in society, I would argue this section actually contributes to the increasing violence we see, rather than solving it.

The third thing they clearly say in most of these letters is children have rights and in Canadian law, especially Canadian family law, parents have a responsibility to support and affirm their kids, and use of force against children is not a way of supporting and affirming kids. It remains peculiar to me that the only debate we have in our society about use of force is whether we can use force against kids. We're not debating this about use of force against anybody else to correct or educate them. It's only children. That seems peculiar to me, and, frankly, it seems offensive.

While I understand some of the concerns the Conservatives have raised, I believe it's incorrect to say teachers opposed repealing. They said very clearly they supported repeal. They had concerns, and the government has agreed to address those concerns. That's how we got to where we are today.

I'm hopeful, in the spirit of advancing reconciliation, we can finish our work on this bill today and we can pass this bill and move onto other important things, which other members have mentioned this committee needs to deal with. But there is a broad national call for action to implement the Truth and Reconciliation Commission's call to action number 6.

8:50 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Lena Metlege Diab

Mr. Fortin, the floor is yours.

8:50 a.m.

Bloc

Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I would like to ask the witnesses some questions, if that's possible.

I understand that Bill C-273, the purpose of which is to repeal section 43 of the Criminal Code, is a response to call to action number 6 of the final report of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission of Canada. That's virtually the only reason we have this bill before us.

Would you please explain more clearly the purpose of the final report of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission?

8:50 a.m.

Isabelle Desharnais Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice

The report focuses solely on the physical and sexual abuse that occurred at institutions. So it isn't about the residential schools per se; the 2015 report addresses all matters pertaining to physical and sexual abuse.

8:50 a.m.

Bloc

Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC

So you're saying that call to action number 6 is a response to the finding that physical and sexual violence was committed. Do we have an exact idea of the extent of the physical and sexual violence we're talking about? Who committed that violence? Against whom, at what time and in what place was it committed? Can we specify that?

8:50 a.m.

Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice

Isabelle Desharnais

It's essentially a report that establishes all the physical and sexual abuse that indigenous people have suffered in the past. So the report is quite broad in scope, and its call to action number 6 concerns physical and sexual abuse.