Justice Committee on March 22nd, 2022

[Kevin B. Westell]

I hate to be repetitive and go back to my previous answer, but it's my sense that including a provision that makes the purchase of sexual services, in general, a crime doesn't really do any good, because it's not narrowly focused enough to get at what we're concerned about.

It's inherent in your question that the concern is not the purchase of sexual services by two consenting adults. The concern is the exploitative relationships that can evolve, and have evolved from these contacts over history.

We should be criminalizing any involvement of children—

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Westell.

[Kevin B. Westell]

—in the sex trade.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Ms. Byrne, I'm going to ask you essentially the same question. In your opinion, how far should the law go? What limits should be drawn when reviewing the legislation? Does the Criminal Code not contain enough provisions to regulate prostitution activities? I sometimes get the impression that some duplication exists between the Criminal Code and the legislation. I'd like to know what you think about that.

What limits should be imposed?

[Supt Lisa Byrne]

Thank you.

I don't envy the position of striking this balance because, really, it is a balance between adult consenting sex workers and those who use the sex work industry to victimize and exploit individuals, including children, so it's a very difficult balance, and I don't envy you your job.

At the moment, the Canadian police do believe that the Criminal Code is sufficient, although I do hear my colleagues Mr. Westell and Ms. Grundberg and their comments. I can also understand their points of view.

What I think could be elaborated on in the Criminal Code is perhaps to put some thought into offences where we do not need to revictimize or do not need victim engagement.

I won't pretend to actually be able to give you some legitimate answers today, but I think there should be some thought and discussion around whether there are additional offences we could add where we expand on the definitions of the involvement of organized crime, the involvement of violence, the involvement of children, and any offences that could be better defined with respect to those broad victim categories, and perhaps look as well at the exceptions to see if we can—

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Ms. Byrne, I will interrupt you, if I may, as my time is limited.

I feel we agree on the sexual exploitation issue. My question is more about prostitution.

Has the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police looked at what is being done elsewhere, in other countries, in terms of decriminalization?

If so, what aspects of decriminalization would you be comfortable with?

[Supt Lisa Byrne]

I'm not in a position to answer that on behalf of the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police.

Certainly, here in British Columbia we have looked at different models, including the Nordic model, for example. We have created enforcement guidelines with respect to that model.

Again, I can't specifically speak for the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police. I apologize.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

What do you say to female and male prostitutes—some men are in the trade too—who say that it's hard for them to report a pimp, for example, given the provisions of the act? Is there a solution to that problem?

The idea was to protect these individuals, but in the end we made it harder for them to report abuse.

[Supt Lisa Byrne]

I would agree with that position. Whether it's a man or a woman, it's very difficult to speak out against a pimp and to testify against them, because doing that creates inherent danger, particularly since, as I mentioned, a lot of the pimps I am aware of and have done investigations on are part of organized crime, so it carries a much more significant threat.

I think that is the crux of the problem. How do we have victims come forward and testify, and how do we protect them and not have to revictimize them in the current system, which is an adversarial system?

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Wouldn't decriminalization have the effect of helping—

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Thank you, Mr. Fortin. I'm sorry, but we're just out of time there.

Mr. Garrison, you have six minutes.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I will turn to Superintendent Byrne.

I'll just ask about a certain contradiction I seem to hear in what you're saying to us. You're saying that you don't enforce certain sections of this law, but you need to keep them because you need to use them against trafficking. To me, that seems a bit contradictory. If we have a problem with prosecuting trafficking, shouldn't we improve those sections of the Criminal Code rather than trying to use sections of the Criminal Code that you think are actually not necessary when it comes to sex work?

[Supt Lisa Byrne]

It's not that I don't think they're necessary. I don't think they're necessary for particular demographics, but I would say they are necessary for the enforcement with respect to the vulnerable victims and those in exploitative situations.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Essentially, you're saying that you need it for those who are being trafficked and exploited, so don't we actually need better laws to deal with trafficking and exploitation, rather than generalized laws dealing with sex work in general?

[Supt Lisa Byrne]

Perhaps, but I would be reluctant to remove some of the sex work aspects of them because, for police in Canada, it can be very difficult to gather the requisite evidence. As I said, the more tools we have at our disposal—and often those come in the form of a variety of offences, which may not be the ones that would actually lead to prosecution—the more success we will have in our investigations.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Of course, you say that from your experience in Vancouver—and I know that's true in Vancouver and Victoria—the sections that are somewhat problematic, especially those about where sex work can be practised in public and about the ancillary services that might make it safer, aren't enforced in Vancouver and Victoria, but they are enforced in other places in Canada.

If we leave this in place, are we then saying it is up to the discretion of police forces as to whether these are useful things to have?

[Supt Lisa Byrne]

I would encourage the group to come up with legislation that can be applied throughout the country.

I understand that it is a very different demographic of enforcement here in British Columbia. I know we've been working very hard on enforcement guidelines with the British Columbia chiefs of police, as well as with the provincial government. Perhaps enforcement guidelines become somewhat subjective across the country and stronger legislation would be helpful for police as well, a more concise and concrete legislation.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

We've heard quite a bit of testimony in this committee from those who are involved in sex work and from sex work advocacy organizations. In particular, we've heard that those provisions that make it illegal to solicit—I'll use that word, even though it's not the word I like—sex work around certain public institutions, and municipalities, force sex workers into unsafe situations.

Would you agree that if those sections are being enforced, it puts sex workers in more vulnerable situations by making them work in isolated places? Would you agree that this is the case?

[Supt Lisa Byrne]

I'm sorry, but I can't really comment outside of my experience here in the Vancouver area. I would be reluctant to comment on a rural situation, for example, that I'm unfamiliar with. I can only speculate that if that's what they're telling you then perhaps there is legitimacy to it, but I can't give you an example or any legitimate opinion on it.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Okay.

We've also heard from those who are advocates for sex workers about the use of the immigration act and the prohibition of migrant workers being involved in the sex trade as creating an extra vulnerability that prevents migrant workers who might be subject to violence or be exploited from approaching the police because they could end up being deported from Canada.

Have you found that to be the case?

[Supt Lisa Byrne]

No, not at all, in my work. In fact, as part of our guidelines, we do not seek immigration enforcement. We want it to be very victim-centric. So the answer is no, not here in British Columbia.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Again, is that part of the guidelines of the British Columbia Association of Chiefs of Police, rather than an impact of the law?

[Supt Lisa Byrne]

That's correct.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Great.

I have a question for Ms. Grundberg, and I know I'm going to run out of time fairly soon.

Ms. Grundberg, I would like to know, as it wasn't very clear, whom you are speaking for today.

[Jeneane S. Grundberg]

I speak for the Canadian Bar Association, national municipal section.

As was referenced earlier, the Canadian Bar Association is an umbrella organization covering the entirety of the country. The municipal section itself includes both lawyers who are private practitioners and in-house lawyers for municipalities from across the province.

We were able to draw on the collective experience of our 20 executive members, which spans the country. As I mentioned, this includes both private practitioners doing work for municipalities and in-house lawyers.