Evidence of meeting #101 for National Defence in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was office.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Philippe Dufresne  Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada

5:35 p.m.

Conservative

Dean Allison Conservative Niagara West, ON

Do you think it's reasonable for a requester, whether they be a junior member or a vulnerable person, to be able to actually name specific record holders? When the challenges go in, they need to know who has touched the file. How on earth would they ever be able to do that? Would it be an easier process for them to be able to get that information?

5:35 p.m.

Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada

Philippe Dufresne

I don't have a specific area on this, other than to say that the process should be adapted to the circumstance and should be as user-friendly as possible. If you make a process and it's very challenging, or there are disincentives for individuals to use it, that's a concern. The processes should be looked at—there may be specific realities and specific departments—but the idea is to make this process easy to understand and easy to use, so those rights can be exercised.

5:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

Thank you, Mr. Allison.

In anticipation that the bells are going to start ringing shortly, do I have unanimous consent to proceed for 15 minutes after the bells?

5:35 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

5:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

Okay, thank you.

Mr. Fillmore, you have four minutes, please.

5:35 p.m.

Liberal

Andy Fillmore Liberal Halifax, NS

Thank you very much, Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Dufresne and Ms. Gervais, for your work and for your time and presence here today.

I want to begin by speaking with you about modernization and digitization. I'd like to just briefly at the beginning explore a question that I've asked some other witnesses on this study. Sometimes we can fool ourselves into thinking that going entirely digital and relying entirely on computing to streamline, simplify and expedite processes is the way to go. In the case of your work, would you say that's true? Is it necessary to become entirely digital?

5:40 p.m.

Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada

Philippe Dufresne

In the case of our work, we're looking at a range. It's not entirely digital; we're doing a combination of both. We've designed and created a digital tool, for instance, for a breach, to assess whether a given privacy breach is a real risk of harm, and that's going to give an opinion on that and assist in that. There's a combination of that, but then you're going to have the assessment by the investigator, and you're going to have those decisions, so I think we always have to have that in mind. Digital tools and technology bring significant advantages. We need to harness those advantages, and we also need to manage them so there aren't implications that could harm privacy or other aspects.

5:40 p.m.

Liberal

Andy Fillmore Liberal Halifax, NS

Okay, thank you.

I think you began to answer my second question. What initiatives do you have under way now to modernize and digitize your work within the commission?

5:40 p.m.

Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada

Philippe Dufresne

We've moved forward in terms of information on the cloud, for instance, at the OPC. We are looking at technologies generally to see which ones could be used and how to use them. In terms of our strategic priority, we talked about staying ahead of technology in terms of legal compliance. What that means is that we have a role as a regulator to provide guidance and make decisions in terms of complaints on new technologies, including artificial intelligence.

However, also as an institution, we have a responsibility to be as efficient as possible. If there's technology that can help us do that work better, we have to consider that, but we have to consider that in a way that is protective of privacy, that can serve as an example that says if you're going to use this technology, here's the type of due diligence that you need to do before you use it. One of the messages we've been giving to government departments is that before they use new tools from a private sector organization, they should make sure they do that due diligence, that they have the privacy impact assessment and that they're satisfied that this technology is protective of the privacy of Canadians.

5:40 p.m.

Liberal

Andy Fillmore Liberal Halifax, NS

This is interesting. You really do walk a line in your office. On one hand, you are compelled to be open and transparent, and you're very much about providing information in a free and open way, but, at the same time, you need to protect privacy and protect the people who deserve and need to be protected.

You mentioned a moment ago that you developed a digital tool that helps to de-risk that, and I think we already heard someone mention AI. Are you using AI in cases like that, the tool you mentioned?

5:40 p.m.

Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada

Philippe Dufresne

The tool we've developed is a tool where you will input the types of informational elements about the breach—what happened and in what context and so on—and then that tool will generate a score that will indicate that this looks like it's serious enough, that this looks like a breach you should be reporting. It's designed to help, but it doesn't replace the expertise and the human decision-making. It's an example of using technology for something that can help privacy.

Other examples of privacy enhancement technology would be synthetic data or other types of information where you can use technology to protect privacy. You can achieve the same benefits of data without being able to identify individuals.

We're looking at all of these fears, but, as you indicate, we have to make sure that, whatever we're using, we're doing it in a privacy-protected way.

5:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

Thank you, Mr. Fillmore.

5:40 p.m.

Liberal

Andy Fillmore Liberal Halifax, NS

Thank you.

5:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

You have a very tight two minutes, Ms. Normandin.

May 1st, 2024 / 5:40 p.m.

Bloc

Christine Normandin Bloc Saint-Jean, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Dufresne, I'd like to continue on the issue of privacy impact assessments, which we've just been discussing.

I imagine you're familiar with the Cellebrite company. I understand that its tools are being used by the Canadian Security Intelligence Service and the Department of National Defence, among others. However, I also understand that, even in the context of a judicial authorization or an internal investigation, the government still has an obligation to carry out a privacy impact assessment. If the government fails to do so, it's in violation of its own law.

I'd like to know what we can do about that. What sanctions can be imposed, or what should be changed to prevent that kind of situation from occurring?

5:40 p.m.

Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada

Philippe Dufresne

In fact, the government is not violating its own law, because conducting such an assessment is not a legal obligation, but currently stems from a Treasury Board directive. Hence, a department that doesn't comply is violating a government directive, not a law. That's the problem we've identified. In our view, there should be a provision in the law that says that when a department develops a new program or uses new tools that may have significant consequences for privacy, it must carry out a privacy impact assessment.

We'll continue to encourage the departments to conduct those assessments, and we'll continue to advocate for legislation making them mandatory. In an ideal world, when the question is asked, the response would always be, “Yes, we carried out an assessment.” The media and parliamentary committees are doing important work by raising those issues.

The idea is not to ban those tools outright. Indeed, police forces must have the tools they need to do their jobs, but they need to be disciplined in their use of those tools, after conducting a privacy impact assessment.

We issued a decision on certain tools used by the Royal Canadian Mounted Police to fight crime. Of course, fighting crime is important and the RCMP has to be able to do so successfully, but we determined that the approach taken to protect privacy was insufficient. Therefore, we'll continue to do this work, but I think that there would be greater compliance if the obligation were enshrined in law.

5:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

Thank you, Ms. Normandin.

Ms. Mathyssen, you also have a tight two minutes.

5:45 p.m.

NDP

Lindsay Mathyssen NDP London—Fanshawe, ON

In the previous meeting, we heard from witnesses about the still unresolved Afghan detainees case. The government had prorogued Parliament before the public had a chance to learn the full truth of whether the government was knowingly transferring Afghan detainees, and we wouldn't have known that without specific whistle-blowers and the protection of those whistle-blowers.

Richard Colvin was the diplomat who brought the allegations forward, and we heard that, of course, senior military leadership and government elected officials were involved. They tried to discredit him. There's a lot that was done against that whistle-blower, and there weren't protections in place to ensure that he was protected at that time.

I want to know if you believe that there have been enough legislative changes to effectively protect whistle-blowers, because we certainly heard in this committee as well that, through the chain of command, if things are brought forward, there is often punishment for that.

Can you talk about that in terms of what you've seen and your experience as the commissioner?

5:45 p.m.

Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada

Philippe Dufresne

I think that it's important that people be able to access legal recourse. If you have a legal right, if you're protecting citizens, employees, civil servants or otherwise, people need to be able to access the systems. People need to be able to file a complaint and not worry about repercussions or reprisals.

From my standpoint as a regulator, that's important. It's important that you're not creating these disincentives for individuals to file complaints, because, at the end of the day, this is all being done in the public interest and with the mandate of Parliament.

5:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

Thank you, Ms. Mathyssen.

Mr. Bezan, you have four minutes.

5:45 p.m.

Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

For clarification, Mr. Dufresne, you said your office was created in 1983 under PIPEDA. That's the same legislation that was used to create the Office of the Information Commissioner as well.

Is that correct?

5:45 p.m.

Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada

Philippe Dufresne

It was not PIPEDA. It was the Privacy Act.

5:45 p.m.

Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB

It was the Privacy Act. Okay.

However, the Information Commissioner has the power to take the department and the Minister of National Defence to court for failure to comply with access to information.

5:45 p.m.

Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada

Philippe Dufresne

That's right. The Information Commissioner was created under the Access to Information Act, and the Privacy Commissioner under the Privacy Act. More recently—I think it was 2017, but I may be wrong on the date—Bill C-58 amended the Access to Information Act to give the Information Commissioner order-making powers. That's something that has not been done yet for privacy.

5:45 p.m.

Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB

You don't have the ability to hold the department, minister, deputy minister or chief of the defence staff accountable for failure to comply with the act.