National Defence Committee on May 6th, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Good morning.

I'll remind colleagues and witnesses of the audio feedback problem that we've been having. I'm not going to go through the entire script again, but it is a pretty serious problem. If we could keep these earpieces away from the microphones and when they're not in use, put them on the dot, that would be very helpful.

We have three witnesses with us today, colleagues.

We have Mike Greenley, from MDA Space.

We have Brian Gallant coming to us virtually.

Brian, it's good to see you. I think I saw you on Sparks Street mall last week.

We have Michele Beck and Stephen Hampton from Telesat.

This is turning out to be really quite an interesting study, folks. I'm anticipating that each one of you will have something really insightful to say.

First of all, I'll ask Mr. Greenley for his opening five-minute statement. Then we'll have Mr. Gallant and then Madam Beck.

[Mike Greenley, Chief Executive Officer, MDA Space]

Good morning. Thank you for the opportunity to speak today on the essential topic of space defence in Canada.

My name is Mike Greenley. I'm the CEO of MDA Space, Canada's largest space company, and the chair of the board of Space Canada, Canada's industry association for all of our space companies. Brian is the CEO, and he'll speak next.

Today I get to lead Canada's largest space company and export our capability globally with over $1 billion in annual sales forecast this year. I get to do that because Canada made three key strategic decisions. Canada decided to be the third country to put a satellite into space to better understand how satellites could enable telecommunications across our country. As a result of that, on a long journey, today MDA Space is a world leader in digital low-earth orbit communication satellite constellations.

Canada also decided to develop synthetic aperture radar, or SAR, satellites to monitor our country and our coastlines. Today MDA Space is the world leader in broad-area SAR satellites globally, based on the legacy RADARSAT heritage.

Third, Canada decided to contribute space robotics, initially in the form of the Canadarm to the space shuttle program and subsequently to the international space station, where it has been operating for 25 years. Now MDA Space is working on the third generation of the Canadarm for the moon, work that has enabled us to launch our own commercial product line, MDA SKYMAKER, to the global space market.

These moves by Canada were critical. They established Canada as a space leader in civil and military space capability. They gave Canada relevance, generated via contributions to the allied team, which added to Canada's sovereignty and geopolitical power. Today's space capability is increasingly important in military operations and is increasingly important to everyday civilian life. It must therefore be protected and defended.

In my opinion, Canada has fallen behind from a military space capability perspective and is not engaging its industrial base effectively. As a result, our relevance in a rapidly changing geopolitical world is declining, and along with it our ability to protect and defend Canadians from a space perspective. Our single largest key challenge, and our single largest opportunity to reverse this trend, is to take a whole-of-Canada approach to defence military capability delivery. To achieve this, there are several things we urgently need to do.

First, we must establish a classified dialogue between the defence department and the industrial base on the true threats in space and the future military need. Military space activity occurs at the top secret level of security and above. The military and industry must be able to talk about the threat and talk about the capability requirements well in advance of procurement and well in advance of operational need. Today we cannot do that. As a result, industry cannot be prepared to innovate and have defence solutions ready for procurement and operational need when procurements suddenly appear decades later.

Second, we must establish a commercial partnership between defence and industry. The Canadian Forces continue to be stuck in a procurement pattern from the past, ensuring that the Canadian Forces own and operate all defence space capability themselves. Today many nations, including the United States Department of Defense and the United Kingdom, have established a policy of “build only what you cannot buy” as a service, with the intent to purchase vast amounts of space-based earth observation data, communications services, launch services, and other space operational support, including counter-space, as a service from industry.

Canada must start to do this or they will significantly delay the establishment of critical military capability while waiting for their procurement processes to complete. It is faster and cheaper in many cases to procure via commercial service from industry, and it leverages a deep knowledge base that does not historically exist inside the Canadian Forces.

Third, Canada must focus on engaging the Canadian space industrial base, which is world-leading, to purchase technology and services in support of space operations in defence of the country. Interoperability and interdependency with the United States is important, especially in such combined operations as NORAD, but Canada must do this in a manner that engages the domestic industrial base. In doing this, Canada will ensure sovereignty and economic stability and re-establish our relevance and geopolitical power that comes from contributing capability to a combined team.

All nations engage their domestic industrial base on defence and security as a first priority, and Canada needs to do the same. Global fairness is not required. It is not conducted in other nations, and it results in Canada negotiating with itself on the global stage.

Lastly, we need to move faster. We are missing opportunity. For example, you'll hear from Telesat today. Canada needs communications in the north. Canada has identified procurement spending to purchase space capability for communications in the north circa 2038. Meanwhile, Telesat will launch a global communications capability with satellites built by MDA Space in 2027. If we had a conversation today, it could potentially be configured to deliver military communications in the Arctic a decade faster as a commercial service. We must think like this. We must start to behave like the rest of the western world about the establishment of military space capability through a whole-of-Canada approach.

Thank you for the opportunity.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Greenley.

Mr. Gallant, you have five minutes, please.

[Brian Gallant, Chief Executive Officer, Space Canada]

Hello, everyone. Thank you so much for inviting me here today.

Space systems and solutions are an essential part of Canada’s defence strategy, contributing directly or indirectly to virtually all defence operations. That is why the team at Space Canada, an organization that represents the Canadian space ecosystem, is so pleased to see this committee undertake this study of Canada’s space defence.

Mr. Chair and members of the House of Commons Standing Committee on National Defence, thank you for undertaking this study, and thank you for inviting Space Canada to be a part of this exercise.

Our organization represents over 80 Canadian space innovators that collectively play an essential role in protecting the environment, combatting climate change, bridging the digital divide, enabling humanity to explore beyond our planet, and safeguarding Canada’s security and sovereignty.

Indeed, space capabilities connect Canada’s personnel when operating at home and around the world. They provide intelligence and information vital to decision-making, and allow Canada to contribute to the collective defence of North America and internationally with our NATO and other allies.

The Canadian space sector contributes nearly $3 billion to the Canadian economy every year, sustaining thousands of jobs—largely in STEM—that pay, on average, 64% more than the Canadian average and 32% more than other jobs in the aerospace sector. Moreover, the space sector is very R and D intensive, with over $500 million of annual investment. This is 18 times higher than other manufacturing sectors.

The global space sector is projected to grow exponentially between now and 2040, and it is estimated to reach over $1 trillion per year.

Space capabilities will deliver operational benefits for Canada's defence, will allow Canada to contribute those capabilities to continental and collective security through existing NORAD and NATO commitments, and will strengthen Canada's space industrial base.

Developing solutions in Canada gives Canada priority access to innovation, sustains Canada's technological advantage, and has the potential to deliver dual-use spinoff technologies for commercial export growth and increases opportunities for partnership with our allies and partners.

It is for these reasons Canada should accelerate the delivery of identified space defence programs; engage directly with Canada's space innovators; expand defence research and development programs; and establish a National Space Council to coordinate space priorities across the Government of Canada.

Although Canada is a leader in space, the competition is getting tougher. Canada’s space industry risks being left behind in the face of the increasingly competitive global landscape at a time when space capabilities have never been more important or strategic.

Space Canada is, therefore, emphatically supportive of the Government of Canada’s recent commitment in the tabled budget to create a national space council. Inspired by the U.S. example, a national space council will deliver a whole-of-government approach to space. It should be an internal government body led by ministers who meet at least biannually—if not quarterly—to, among other things, undertake a review of space systems procurement, including a benchmarking study to compare how other nations employ rapid procurement practices and serve as key customers for innovative space technologies.

This government agency should also modernize the space regulatory framework that builds on the 2023 consultation by the Canadian Space Agency, leveraging Canada's space industrial base with its world-class capabilities, workforce, innovation and track record of delivery.

Finally, this government agency should guide the development and implementation of a whole-of-government national civil, defence and commercial space policy.

This would position Canada at the forefront of the New Space Economy, and deliver associated economic, social, environmental, defence and national security benefits.

I look forward to further discussing the pivotal role space plays in securing Canada's defence and security with you all today.

Once again, thank you for inviting me.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Gallant.

We go now to Madam Beck, for five minutes, please.

[Michele Beck, Senior Vice President of Sales, Canada, Telesat]

Good morning, Mr. Chair and members of the committee. Thank you for inviting Telesat to participate today.

My name is Michele Beck and I am Telesat's senior vice-president of sales for Canada. With me this morning is Mr. Stephen Hampton, head of public policy and strategic accounts.

Telesat is one of the world's largest and most innovative satellite operators, operating for over 55 years from our headquarters in Ottawa. As a proud Canadian company, we play a central role in Canada's commercial and defence connectivity infrastructure. Today, we connect over seven million households to high-definition television; provide broadband and other lifeline services to rural, remote and indigenous communities; and deliver mission-critical services to Canada's national security and public safety community. We offer these same types of services all around the world.

This study comes at a pivotal time for Canada and our sector. There is a global high stakes space race under way and it is critical to Canada's sovereignty and national security.

Critical sovereign communication, whether in air, at sea, or on the ground, is fundamental to Canada's national security and that of our allies. This can only be achieved through advanced satellite communications networks, specifically, global, ubiquitous, interoperable satellite communications networks that are not only sovereign and secure, but that are also allied by design and capable of delivering joint allied operations in key regions like the Arctic and the Indo-Pacific.

That's why we've undertaken the most ambitious and innovative project in our proud history, a $6-billion state-of-the-art LEO satellite constellation, known as Telesat Lightspeed. It will initially consist of nearly 200 highly advanced satellites and will deliver affordable, secure and resilient fibre-like broadband connectivity and enable 5G everywhere on earth, including all of Canada and the Arctic. It's the largest space program ever conceived in Canada and will shape the domestic space sector for decades to come.

Telesat Lightspeed will be designed, manufactured and operated in Canada. Telesat Lightspeed is a true Canadian flagship program. It will help bridge the global digital divide; create and sustain thousands of high-quality jobs in Canada; spur domestic innovation, investment and exports; and ensure that Canada is at the forefront of the rapidly growing and highly strategic new space economy.

Today's global defence landscape is changing rapidly, both on earth and in space, driven by climate change, new geopolitical dynamics, emerging technologies and rising security threats to our national sovereignty.

The defence of our country and of our geographically strategic areas such as the Arctic is now more important than ever.

To adapt to these changes, governments around the world are placing an increasing emphasis on the role of space in their defence infrastructure. The world space industry has also radically changed since the turn of the century. More dynamic and innovative, it is becoming increasingly critical.

Traditionally, defence projects in space were directed and developed exclusively by government. The pace of technological change was incremental, oftentimes bogged down by procurement processes, cost overruns and a fundamental lack of urgency.

Today, a new space race is emerging with commercial companies developing space-based assets and capabilities for both commercial and defence purposes. Over the past several years, we have seen generational leaps in technological capabilities with many calling this sea change the transition from “old space” to “new”.

As Canada looks toward NORAD modernization and delivering the most advanced technology to its armed forces, it should follow the lead set by the U.S., the U.K. and other countries around the world that have moved beyond the legacy approach of exclusively relying on dedicated government-owned and operated defence systems to meet accelerating threats.

Instead, these governments are working hand in glove with their domestic private sector, leveraging significant commercial investments made in cutting-edge, allied by design, capabilities and are integrating these space-based assets into their defence systems.

Canada is a world leader in satellite communications. We have a clear competitive advantage, and it should be exploited to its fullest. The Government of Canada should look to partner with the space sector to rapidly ensure that the Canadian Armed Forces and our allies have access to the most cutting-edge technologies, like Telesat Lightspeed.

Thank you again for the opportunity to be here. We look forward to your questions.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you.

Ms. Gallant, you have six minutes, please.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Through you, the first questions will be for MDA.

Since the revelation of Putin's willingness to use the nuclear weaponization of space, has any entity from the federal government approached you to discuss this?

[Mike Greenley]

To discuss that topic, no. No one has approached us to discuss that topic.

Various intelligence and security agencies from the federal government do approach us, and work with us on national security issues and our ability to ensure that we have very secure operations both domestically and in orbit, but on that topic, no.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

What about contacts you may have in the United States? Has anyone shared anything with you on this topic?

[Mike Greenley]

No. I think, in general, people might generally talk about those things in an unclassified manner, at conferences and the like, but no.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

How vulnerable are satellites and infrastructure relying on satellites to a potential nuclear explosion in low-earth orbit?

[Mike Greenley]

I think satellites are susceptible to any form of explosion in orbit. I think most nations are working hard to ensure we don't do that. I think space and efforts in counter-space...there's lots of bluster that's out there, but I think if folks go around exploding things in orbit, it does just as much harm to their own assets as it would to an adversary because the debris that would be created from that is in those orbital paths. You risk just as much your own operations as the next guy's.

I think people bluster a fair bit on these topics, but, in general, the business of messing around with somebody else's satellite capability would be more subtle than causing explosions.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

What should the federal government do to protect satellites from this new threat on the horizon?

[Mike Greenley]

I think, in general, the Canadian Forces, with their space operations, need to continue to work very effectively with their allies. It seems that is the case, and that it is increasing.

There is also the introduction of what's called a commercial integration cell that will occur in Canada—that also exists in the United States, as an example— whereby those commercial entities that operate significant space capability, like MDA or Telesat, which are here today, would work weekly, regularly, with the military on coordinating our space activities and ensuring that we're mutually aware of threats, and taking actions ourselves and with allies to be able to protect against those threats.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

The Financial Times noted that a leaked report indicated that China is developing sophisticated cyber-weapons that deny, control and hijack foreign satellites.

Potentially, China could take over satellites and gather data without our knowledge, or render them useless by disabling our access. From your expertise, how credible is this threat to Canadian national security if, indeed, it does exist?

[Mike Greenley]

In my remarks, I commented on the importance of our getting through the process of security clearances so that Canadian industry could engage properly with the Department of National Defence about the highly classified nature of the threats that are going on in space. I have limited awareness of that, because we have spent over three years engaging with the Government of Canada to try to get the necessary security clearances for government personnel and appropriate industry personnel so we can have conversations to discuss the types of topics you are mentioning.

Those will come soon, some day, but the bureaucracy is very bogged down in its ability to get the necessary clearances so we can have these conversations. However, I do think it is highly plausible that, given the general knowledge of electronic warfare measures and the ability to jam and interfere with electronic signals, people would have the ability to interfere with satellites. We definitely pay attention to that when we build and protect them today.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

With respect to RADARSAT additions, what progress are you aware of that's being made in adding more satellites to the constellation?

[Mike Greenley]

The RADARSAT Constellation Mission has three satellites in it. MDA built those and launched them in June 2019. As of last October, the government had announced an additional program called RADARSAT+, under which, at a minimum, one additional satellite will be procured to add to that constellation to provide resiliency and start the initiating studies to be able to plan the replacement of RADARSAT Constellation to ensure continuity.

To go back to my comments on collaborating commercially, MDA has invested over $400 million over the last few years to build Chorus, our fourth generation of RADARSAT-capable satellites, which will be owned and operated by MDA and will provide an additional commercial service. If the government wanted to leverage that in partnership with industry, they could do so, as well, to provide additional resiliency to Canada's radar surveillance capability.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Have you seen any movement on the part of the federal government to start moving this ahead?

[Mike Greenley]

On the RADARSAT+ procurement, yes. If you are talking about procurement of commercial services, we have not yet.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Okay.

With respect to Telesat, there have been incidents in which airline Wi-Fi was used in an attempt to hack into avionics so they could take control of the aircraft.

How much of the price for an airline's in-air Wi-Fi service goes to cybersecurity, and has Telesat ever experienced such a cyber-attack?

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

That's an important question. Unfortunately, Mrs. Gallant has not left you any time to answer it. Hopefully, you can circle back in on that.

Ms. Lambropoulos, you have six minutes. Go ahead, please.

[Emmanuella Lambropoulos, Liberal, Saint-Laurent, QC]

Thank you, Chair.

I'd like to begin by thanking our witnesses for being here to answer questions today.

I'll start with Mr. Greenley. You spoke a little bit about interoperability. We've heard about this before, even in previous studies. I'm wondering what specific recommendations you could give the Government of Canada in order to help it promote its own made-in-Canada equipment and technology in order to ensure that Canadian companies are benefiting.

[Mike Greenley]

I think the important thing is to make sure we have interoperability in terms of the overall capability that allows us to, therefore, use Canadian systems and solutions and then contribute.

For example, on Sapphire, which is a space surveillance satellite that was built by MDA Space, we were contracted to operate it. DND contributes, on a daily basis, imagery in terms of what the satellites are doing in space as part of the overall picture in an interoperable way.

Through DND we contribute our radar satellites' imagery to the United States. These types of mechanisms, and of course the Telesat example that we used today, could contribute all kinds of communications capabilities.

We want to be able to ensure that our capability and our procedures are interoperable but also that the technical solutions come from Canadian industry in terms of building them and operating them in support of the Department of National Defence.