National Defence Committee on May 8th, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

I will gavel this meeting in.

We have General Eyre, General Simoneau and General Holman for this meeting on transparency and the study of space defence.

As this is potentially General Eyre's last appearance before this committee—

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Say it's no so.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Yes, I would agree with that. I'd say it's not so but it is so.

I'm going to be something other than my ruthless self with the time and let General Eyre share with us the wisdom he's gained. I was going to say the wisdom he's gained appearing before this committee, but maybe there are a few things he wants to share beyond that. We look forward to what he has to say.

Again, we appreciate your co-operation over the years, General Eyre, with your colleagues and your appearances before the committee. It's an important relationship. We appreciate you holding up your end of it.

We look forward to your remarks. Please go ahead.

[General Wayne D. Eyre, Chief of the Defence Staff, Canadian Armed Forces, Department of National Defence]

Good afternoon, Mr. Chair and committee members.

As the chair mentioned, I am here with Major-General Erick Simoneau, chief of staff of professional conduct and culture, who has been leading the charge on our grievance system's modernization; and our judge advocate general, Brigadier-General Rob Holman.

I want to thank you for the opportunity to discuss the modernization of our grievance system, which is part of a broader institution-wide movement to evolve our military.

This effort—ranging from whole‑of‑Canadian Armed Forces initiatives to grassroots work being done aboard ships, at bases and wings and on deployments—is to ensure that our institution meets the expectations of current and future military members and the Canadian public, while upholding their values.

We have to work tirelessly to instill a climate of respect, inclusivity and integrity throughout the organization. I view fitness in the gym as an analogy. You can't go to the gym once and call yourself fit; it has to be a continuous effort. Our efforts to modernize our institution, to change the way that we deal with people and to continue to evolve have to be continuous as well.

This is all firmly embedded within the values and ethical principles laid out in “Canadian Armed Forces Ethos: Trusted to Serve”, which we published in 2022. I'm very proud of it, and it's a foundational document for our military profession, a document that we've shared with numerous allies, to their appreciation.

The Canadian Armed Forces has undertaken a number of broad reforms. Modernizing our grievance and complaint processes is a critical element of this work. For example, the grievance system that we have is still modelled after an industrial-age system in which organizations favoured stability and predictability over responsiveness and timeliness. Those two aspects are required to thrive in the information age. Our intent is to make it easier for members to submit grievances, to make the system more responsive to their concerns and situations, and to resolve their concerns in a timelier way. We've made some significant strides to streamline processes, enhance accessibility and ensure that all members have a fair and impartial avenue to address their grievances.

An example of this work is the digital grievance submission form that was launched two months ago. This form is intended to simplify, standardize and streamline both the submission and resolution processes. Initial reports are good. We're also in the process of establishing a new grievance centre of expertise in the fall of this year. This centre of expertise will allow members and the chain of command to have direct access to grievance experts, providing them with direct support on submitting and adjudicating grievances. Moreover, it will allow us to identify systemic issues across the institution to give us the justification to take rapid action.

However, we're not waiting for perfect solutions to be implemented before we adapt to the new environment. We recently implemented a pilot process to clear the backlog of files in the grievance system. This is a key driver of our grievance transformation efforts. Supported by a diverse multidisciplinary team of military and civilian leaders and policy experts, this pilot project has succeeded in achieving two overarching objectives.

First, it has significantly reduced the number of backlogged grievance files. This work has set in motion the steps required to finalize a substantial number of these files in the coming weeks and months.

Second, we are leveraging the new tools and lessons learned from this pilot process to inform our broader grievance system transformation efforts. This effort at reducing our backlog was led here by General Simoneau, who is prepared to discuss it in more detail. Increasing the use of informal resolutions, direct engagement with policyholders and commanders, and the deployment of new delegated authorities are all elements of the pilot process that can be brought forward to streamline our grievance system and make it timelier and more responsive to individual grievers.

We're working to implement recommendation 10 of the Arbour report, which focuses on prioritizing and fast‑tracking grievances related to sexual misconduct. We expect our response to this recommendation to be fully implemented by the end of this year.

The effectiveness and independence of review bodies like the Military Grievances External Review Committee and the office of the ombudsman are also critical to our work in these areas. They are two bodies I engage with on a regular basis. These independent bodies, among others, provide the necessary review and independent analysis to ensure the continued evolution and improvement of the Canadian Armed Forces. Our goal is to develop solutions that are responsive to the needs of our members and that align with best practices in grievance resolution and organizational excellence. We don't claim to have all the answers. That's why it's so important to reach out to external experts and be open to that advice.

It's imperative that we ensure the well-being of our personnel and address any systemic barriers that hinder their ability to seek redress without fear of reprisal. This includes providing timely and transparent access to grievance decisions while also protecting personal information. We are committed to further modernizing the grievance system and care for our people. Our operational effectiveness is based on teamwork and cohesion. They in turn are predicated on trust—trust in a system that will look after them. Given the deteriorating security situation around the world, this trust is imperative. We must continue to move forward and pull ourselves into the information age.

I'll change gears and talk a bit about you. I want to express my sincere gratitude to the members of this committee for your unwavering dedication and commitment to the rigorous oversight of matters concerning the Department of National Defence and the Canadian Armed Forces. As I stand before you today, I recognize the privilege it has been to contribute to your important work. Your steadfast professionalism, thorough examination of legislation and diligent scrutiny of policies and programs have undoubtedly strengthened our national defence capabilities.

I've said often that a pillar of military professionalism in a democracy is its subservience to duly elected civilian rule. It's a pillar we must continually remind ourselves of and it's a pillar we must all embrace. You help maintain that imperative, so thank you.

Now, as the chair said, this is likely—maybe not, but likely—my last appearance before this committee. I want to extend my heartfelt appreciation for the invaluable opportunity to collaborate in the service of this country. I have full confidence in the continued excellence of this committee's endeavours and full confidence in whoever the government selects to come in behind me to provide the same level of engagement with you. I extend my best wishes and wish you all the best in your future endeavours.

In the twilight of my career, as I mentioned to a group of young students at lunch in my second speech of the day—I think this is my fourth—which included a group of young officer cadets, I know that this is an institution on the upswing. Despite all the challenges, with the dark clouds on the horizon and the deteriorating security situation we face around the world, I am confident that this institution is on the right path. As I told that new generation of leaders, I am envious. I am envious of the challenges they're going to face, because this is about the journey. I would do it all over again.

Thank you for your unwavering commitment to the safety and security of Canada. I look forward to your questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, General Eyre, and thank you for those kind words.

[Voices]

Hear, hear!

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you for the enthusiasm of appearing before the committee. I can imagine that the enthusiasm varied from time to time, however.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

With that, we'll turn to Mr. Bezan for the first six minutes.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

General Eyre, I just want to say thank you for your incredible service and tenure as CDS and your entire military career. We're all very thankful that you've been in a position of leadership during some difficult times, with everything from COVID to the war in Ukraine and the increasingly dangerous world we seem to find ourselves. We're trying to navigate through that, despite tight budgets and cuts in those budgets at times, and all the other things that have happened within the Canadian Armed Forces.

You stepped into a situation that had the entire CAF in turmoil following one of your predecessors. Thanks for coming in, stabilizing that ship and moving the troops in the right direction.

We're here to talk about transparency, and you did talk about that in your opening remarks. The chair and I both spoke last week at the defence intelligence conference, and one of the concerns that I raised.... We talk about making sure Canadians understand the importance of our Canadian Armed Forces, the situation we find ourselves in and how we change public perception. A lot of it comes down to the classification of information and the overclassification of information. If Canadians are going to understand the threat environment, then we need to be more blunt with information. This committee, of course, does not have any security clearances, so the information shared around this table and the information shared with the public is limited and only open source.

Do you believe there needs to be a change in how the Canadian Armed Forces and the Department of National Defence handle information so that we can make sure the public is onside with the expenditures, the investments and the missions we have to undertake to keep Canadians safe?

[Gen Wayne D. Eyre]

Yes, I agree that we need to continually evaluate how we classify information. We need to have a “need to share” mentality instead of “need to know”. This is an approach we have discussed with our closest allies as well, because often there is a tendency to compartmentalize information that would be more effective in being shared.

It's a question of balancing synchronization with security and understanding with security. We must continue to question whether we are overclassifying information. The default position can't be to put “secret” and “Canadian eyes only” on it.

To the second piece of your remark, just three hours ago, I was talking to my U.K. counterpart about sharing information with parliamentarians. I believe this committee should be granted security classifications so that we can share with you, in more detail, some of the activities, intelligence and the like that are ongoing. That's a personal opinion, but I think the country would be better for it.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

It's an opinion I share and one I've articulated many times over the years that I've been on this committee.

Richard Shimooka, who was at this committee, said:

Public understanding of the military is at an all-time low and contributes to the lack of support. This is in part due to the lack of open information available and the adversarial relationship that has developed between government and outside bodies over access to information.

Just to add to that, I think we have to make sure that ATIPs are happening in a more efficient manner. We know for a fact that some of my own ATIPs that were submitted in the past were outstanding for over five years. I had five over the five years and some were up to seven years old. Four of them were finally acted upon because Bill Matthews and Bill Blair showed up at committee and heard the complaints. Now, four out of five have all of a sudden magically been answered.

We have heard from former serving and current serving members about the challenges they've had with everything from ATIPs to the Military Grievances External Review Committee. The Information Commissioner herself, who you know has taken the Department of National Defence and the minister to court on three separate occasions, says that the issues are the same and haven't changed much. She worked at the Military Grievances External Review Committee over 10 years ago.

Have you had conversations with the minister and deputy minister on the need to prioritize information and the fact that, as we know, we don't have all the appointees sitting at the committee right now? If we're going to properly represent and stand up for our troops, that grievances committee, one, has to be more quick to act and, two, has to have a full slate of committee members.

[Gen Wayne D. Eyre]

There two aspects to that.

First, on the ATIP piece, I agree that we must do better. There are a number of lines of effort that we are working on on the department side to speed things up, whether from a technological and information management perspective or from a process and personnel capacity perspective.

You asked about conversations. Tomorrow, at the defence management committee, which is co-chaired by me and the deputy minister, this is one of the agenda items. Our corporate secretary will be briefing us on how we're going to make things better in the numerous lines of effort.

On your question with respect to the committee, yes, we need to ensure that they have the capacity, but we also need to make sure that we're giving them the right grievances to review so that we are not overwhelming them with grievances, and that their much-valued capacity is targeted to the highest payoff grievances.

I'm going to ask General Simoneau to speak to this.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Just before we move on—

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Nobody is going to move on. We're well past six minutes.

Ms. Lapointe, congratulations on your permanent appointment to this committee. You have six minutes.

[Viviane LaPointe, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

Thank you.

General, transparency is not only about disclosing information; it's also about ensuring that it's easily accessible and understandable to the public. How does the Canadian Armed Forces communicate information about its activities, expenditures and decision-making processes in a really clear and transparent way?

[Gen Wayne D. Eyre]

In terms of expenditures, those are more on the departmental side under the purview of the deputy minister, and they are clearly articulated in the annual reports that we publish for Parliament. I don't know if he had the opportunity during his testimony here to speak in more detail on that, but that's probably the best source of that type of detailed financial information. It's really outside of my realm of responsibility.

In terms of our own activities, within the realm of force protection and operational security, we need to continue to showcase the great work that our people are doing around the world and in this country. Every time I go out and meet with our people, whether it's overseas on operations or here at home, I am inspired. In fact, as they embark on some very important operations, whether it is our mission in Latvia or training the Ukrainian armed forces, many of them tell me that this is the most meaningful thing they have done in their lives.

We need to get that message out. We need to continue to get that message out to Canadians. I don't think the Canadian Armed Forces can do this alone. I would ask committee members—in fact, all of our elected parliamentarians—to get out and talk about the necessity of supporting our Canadian Armed Forces.

As the situation in the world becomes more difficult, I believe that the Government of Canada is going to call upon the Canadian Armed Forces more and more. What is needed is a whole-of-society effort to make sure that we have the institution in place, and the understanding of that institution in place, to address those challenges of the future.

What we need more of in this country—and I've been saying this to a number of groups, as late as when I did my third speech of the day about an hour and a half ago—is a national security dialogue, not to spread fear but to raise the awareness of the realities of the security situation out there. Everybody in this room and listening in can help in that endeavour.

[Viviane LaPointe, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

In your opening remarks, you talked about modernizing your systems and changing the way you deal with people. As an example, you cited a significant improvement in the backlog of grievance files. Can you talk to us about how you'll ensure that this is a sustainable improvement and not a one-time improvement?

[Gen Wayne D. Eyre]

I'm going to turn to the expert, General Simoneau. He briefed me yesterday about how he's going to ensure that those lessons are moved into the centre of expertise.

[Major-General Erick Simoneau, Chief of Staff, Chief Professional Conduct and Culture, Canadian Armed Forces, Department of National Defence]

We ran a pilot project, as mentioned by the chief of the defence staff, and we operated as a board, bringing together around the table all the subject matter experts to find more timely tools to solve the grievances. We intend to formulate a centre of expertise that will replicate what the board did to get through a high number of grievances in three weeks. In three weeks, we pretty much significantly cleared the backlog, as mentioned by the CDS, and I think espousing that new way of doing business will enable us to move much faster for our members.

[Viviane LaPointe, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

General, can you discuss the challenges and obstacles that you encountered in your efforts to improve transparency within the Department of National Defence and the Canadian Armed Forces and how you're addressing those challenges?

[Gen Wayne D. Eyre]

I think the issue is the same as it is for many of the other challenges we face. It's one of a culture of risk intolerance. We must be more willing to take some short-term risks for long-term gain. We saw that very clearly in the efforts that General Simoneau led to address these grievances.

We have a cultural tendency to aim for a 100% solution that is completely airtight legally but that will take forever. No. Let's go for an 80% or 90% solution since speed is of the essence. That same principle can be applied to so much that we are facing.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

You still have about 50 seconds.

[Viviane LaPointe, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

All right.

Looking ahead, what are the priorities for further enhancing transparency within the department?

[Gen Wayne D. Eyre]

In terms of priorities, it's making or streamlining our ATIP process to make sure it is much more responsive. It is making our grievance process much more responsive and transparent in our communication with the grievers so that they understand where their grievance sits. It is also continuing to make sure that we communicate the message of the great work that we're doing around the country.