Public Accounts Committee on April 30th, 2024

[Shawn Tupper]

—is to acknowledge the work we do with the provinces and territories.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Will you meet with the AFN, Mr. Tupper? Will you meet with the AFN on the funding?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you.

Mr. Desjarlais, we will be right back to you shortly. We are over our time.

Ms. Bradford, you have the floor for five minutes. Go ahead, please.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for being with us today.

Mr. Larkin, we've dealt before with the shortage of RCMP officers and the difficulty with recruiting to remote areas. I was just wondering how much pay affects this. Can you elaborate on the pay rates for RCMP with respect to provincial forces or municipal forces? Might that be a factor?

[Warren Brown]

Mr. Chair, I will answer if I may. I can't get into specifics regarding pay. I do know that the RCMP, since we've been unionized, is now more comparable to other police forces of similar type and size across Canada. Other police of jurisdictions and provincial areas have pay and benefits that I won't speak to.

I believe that our pay is now more in line with that of other police departments in Canada, and that has provided more opportunity for experienced police officers to join the RCMP. As well, with our robust and aggressive hiring practices, we've seen an increase in the number of people we have at depot, so I anticipate that we're on a positive path forward to addressing some of our vacancies.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Okay.

Can you elaborate on what the RCMP is doing specifically to increase public confidence and trust with our indigenous communities?

[Warren Brown]

We have a number of programs under way. Primarily the commissioner has his indigenous advisory committee, which includes representatives from each province and territory to provide the commissioner and me—I'm the chair of that committee—with direction on what types of programs they would like to see in their communities.

I think one gap the audit identified was that the RCMP was not a signatory to the CTAs, so I'm hoping that as we move forward in our management action plans we can provide more input and feedback from the communities on the type of policing they'd like to see. We have identified that, primarily under the FNIPP, CTAs are for enhanced policing. However, some of the communities, because we have built trust and confidence through those enhanced positions, would like to see those police officers take on more of a core duty and responsibility.

I think if we address some of those issues we'll be in a better place. The commanding officers, those who are in charge of each division, have their own advisory committees as well. We have reporting elements in place for the detachments to meet frequently with indigenous communities, and it's that consultation and the feedback from the communities that provide us with our direction.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Okay.

Mr. Tupper, could you explain how you plan to bridge the gap between the two types of agreements? We keep referring to the different service deliveries where you have the two types of programs to ensure equal and equitable access and service delivery across all communities. You have the tripartite agreements and then you have the self-governing agreements.

I'm also interested to know how you can encourage more communities to adopt the self-governing model.

[Shawn Tupper]

First of all, we need to be out there working with communities and hear from them in terms of whether or not they want to adopt that model. That has to do with where they're located and the other resources that they have available to them.

Our goal over time, particularly if we succeed in getting the legislation in place, is to start to define that path forward in terms of transitioning communities into more independent policing arrangements. As I say, those will be choices that communities need to make. That is part of the work we're doing now. It's to ascertain what that demand will be.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

I also understand that the reason there are so many funds left over is that provinces or territories aren't stepping up and contributing their fair share. Could you elaborate as to which provinces and territories are not participating in the cost sharing?

[Shawn Tupper]

Again, it's not so much that they're not stepping up. They make different choices through the funding cycles. All the provinces and territories engage with us in this program. All of them invest in various ways in the program. They make choices about what priorities they make. That may be choosing between communities in terms of where they invest and where they don't invest. It may simply be choices they make in terms of whether they augment the funding available in their programs overall.

I want to be clear that provinces and territories are our partners in this program. We have a positive relationship with all the provinces and territories in this work. Community safety is an area of demand where more investment could be made. I also want to point out that it is not just policing that will be the issue in a lot of these communities. What we are doing through community safety planning, what we are doing in terms of crime prevention, what we are doing with respect to youth programming and gangs and drugs programming—all are elements of how we invest in communities, particularly indigenous communities, to try to change and bend the data we see in terms of crime rates.

All of those things work together and will, all together, define what our success is. It won't be just one investment through policing or any of those other programs I just mentioned.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much. That is the time.

Mr. Lemire, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Larkin or Mr. Brown, I'd like to know if you are holding discussions with Public Safety Canada officials on how to recognize indigenous police services as essential services.

Can you tell the committee how that could be done and what it might look like?

[Warren Brown]

Thank you for that.

I would start off by saying, again, as Mr. Tupper referred to earlier, the provinces and territories are responsible for the tempo, if you will, and the priorities for policing in that specific area. Our primary concern as the RCMP is to ensure that in all communities public safety is the number one priority. We would endeavour to support whatever program would best suit the provinces and territories under our contract. We would be nimble. It's not a one-size-fits-all. As I said earlier, no two indigenous communities are the same. There are specific needs that some might have, and others might have other priorities. It becomes a little more complex.

Certainly, the RCMP are at the table to make sure that whatever service we provide, it best meets the communities' needs.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

I'd like to hear more from you about the priorities for indigenous policing.

When was the last time you had a follow-up meeting on capacity development within indigenous communities?

Do you have regular discussions with Public Safety Canada officials?

Are any agreements about to be signed? The Auditor General's report is quite damning, and first nations communities want results on the ground.

Can we expect a changing of the guard?

[Warren Brown]

Thank you.

The Auditor General has identified that gap. It's a gap that, through our management action plan, we hope we can close.

I would, if I may, talk about our national reconciliation pathway, which might assist. As we renew our priorities and commitments for reconciliation, we continue to embrace the phrase “nothing about us without us”, ensuring the inclusion of first nations, Métis and Inuit voices, perspectives and advice, and new and innovative ways of working together. This includes efforts to decolonize policing and enforcement through engagement, applying an indigenous GBA+ lens and reviewing all policies, practices and procedures to ensure service delivery is culturally appropriate. As well, the RCMP will use a trauma-informed approach across all of the organization's functions to increase safety for indigenous women and girls.

I would summarize your question by saying that, when it is time to look at the renewal of CTAs, the RCMP would certainly like to be part of that conversation at the table.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you. Meegwetch.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Desjarlais, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I'm following up on my last point in relation to funding.

Mr. Tupper, I don't believe your argument—that this is a provincial jurisdictional issue—will hold up in court. Jordan's principle is a good example. Not too long ago, another deputy minister said the exact same thing—that it's the provinces that are holding.... Luckily enough, indigenous people fought the government and now indigenous children have the opportunity to live in this country. Who suffers from this jurisdictional football passing? The answer to my question is that it's indigenous people. I'm confident that, should your analysis and advice to the government be challenged in a court, you'll lose the decision and indigenous people will, yet again, win—just like we do most cases at the Supreme Court when it comes to jurisdictional battles.

I suggest that the Ministry of Justice give you better advice as to what the constitutional promises and limits of Canada are, and their relationship to indigenous people. I fundamentally disagree that we should continue to suffer under a model that says jurisdiction has to take a front seat to the lives of indigenous people.

I now want to turn to the fact that indigenous police services have to fight tooth and nail for the minimum funding.

In early spring 2023, funding negotiations between the federal government and Indigenous Police Chiefs of Ontario fell through. On March 29, the Indigenous Police Chiefs of Ontario, which represents nine stand-alone indigenous services, filed a human rights complaint against Public Safety Canada, claiming that the underfunding and under-resourcing of indigenous police services amount to systemic racism. The funding agreements officially expired on March 31, 2023.

Are you aware of this, Mr. Tupper?

[Shawn Tupper]

I am indeed, yes.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Why are there different funding models and terms and conditions when it comes to indigenous versus non-indigenous policing models?

[Shawn Tupper]

I don't negotiate non-indigenous policing models.

You are correct. I am absolutely aware of the case before the courts now. We have tried, genuinely, to engage with the community. We have arrived at an impasse in terms of our understanding of the funding we have available and how we can close an agreement with that community. They have chosen to pursue a legal solution to that.

I appreciate your earlier comments, sir, with respect to where the courts may go. At this point in time, I can only comment that we will see how this gets resolved in the courts.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

I want to note that the court ruled against you already on this.

[Shawn Tupper]

It is under appeal.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Why are you appealing it?