Canada-China Relations Committee on April 19th, 2024

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Yes, so how many scientists would fall into that—

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken Hardie]

Go ahead, Mr. Villemure.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

As I said earlier, Ms. Jeffrey ends her sentences by whispering, and I can't hear her answers.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken Hardie]

Okay. I'll give some floor cues.

Do you need the preceding answer to be repeated, Mr. Villemure?

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Yes, please.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken Hardie]

Okay. I've stopped the clock.

Can you repeat that, please?

[Heather Jeffrey]

What I can say is, first of all, I am the deputy head of the Public Health Agency of Canada. I'm not in a position to comment on the participation of scientists across the country. I can comment on the work of the personnel that belong to the Public Health Agency. I can say that they're required to submit declarations of affiliations for research and also conflict of interest. If employees were in them, those types of talent programs are required to be declared. If they were declared, they would constitute a conflict of interest and would not be allowed, given the nature of the work.

In the case that's at issue today, scientists hid and, in fact, lied about those affiliations, and when they were discovered, those scientists were terminated because of that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken Hardie]

Thank you.

Go ahead, Dr. Ellis.

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Thank you very much.

Dr. Lucas, what we heard from Ms. Jeffrey just now is that there are no scientists known to be participating in any talent programs that the Government of Canada would be aware of. Is that your indication as well, sir?

[Dr. Stephen Lucas]

Mr. Chair, similar to the response from Madam Jeffrey, I can speak to Health Canada. The regulatory scientists in Health Canada who perform product reviews in the context of the Food and Drugs Act and other statutes are subject to the same requirements in terms of declarations of conflicts of interest and affiliations. On the basis of those, to our knowledge, there are no affiliations or conflicts of concern, including with respect to talent programs.

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Thank you for that, Dr. Lucas.

Through you, Chair, I ask the same question to Ms. Huggins. Are you aware of any scientists with declared affiliations with talent programs who are currently working for the Government of Canada?

[Nadine Huggins]

The answer to that question is similar to those from Ms. Jeffrey and Dr. Lucas. I have no knowledge of that and am unable to make that blanket assertation.

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Thank you.

We now know that Dr. Qiu's computer was mirrored in about February 2019. In spite of all that, shipments of Ebola and henipavirus were allowed to continue on March 31, 2019.

Do you think that's appropriate?

[Heather Jeffrey]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

As I mentioned, there was extensive international collaboration in responding to the Ebola outbreak that took place in west Africa from ,2014 to 2016. The work of the national microbiology lab and indeed, Dr. Qiu's life's work, was in therapeutics to respond to Ebola.

The collaboration that was taking place was authorized and fully approved through the procedures that were in place. With a view—

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Thanks, Ms. Jeffrey.

If I might interrupt you.... I apologize. I didn't ask you if they were approved. I asked you if you think it's appropriate, given what you now know.

[Heather Jeffrey]

I think that international collaboration on therapeutics for pathogens and toxins continues to be very important to the development of the science.

I would say that, obviously, in hindsight, given the activities of these scientists and evidence of those activities, which emerged much later in that timeline, we would obviously look at decisions that were taken around their work sooner.

However, the work of collaboration on Ebola continued to be an international priority. Indeed, many countries—Canada, the United States and China included—were active in western Africa, responding on the ground to the Ebola outbreak. It was in that vein that the collaboration was approved and the work authorized.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken Hardie]

Thank you, Dr. Ellis.

We'll now go to Mr. Erskine-Smith for five minutes.

[Nathaniel Erskine-Smith, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

Thanks, Chair.

On the one hand, we had the director of CSIS at this committee earlier, who said that in his view, PHAC acted expeditiously. That's a good thing.

I do want to pick up, though, on my colleague's questioning just now.

I understand the rationale for the shipment of Ebola to the Wuhan Institute of Virology at the end of March 2019.

It's my understanding, when I look through the email chains, that it was Dr. Qiu who instigated that transfer. Is that correct?

[Heather Jeffrey]

I will turn to my colleague, Dr. Poliquin, to talk about the rationale for that transfer. It was related to Dr. Qiu's work, but I'll turn it over to Dr. Poliquin.

[Dr. Guillaume Poliquin]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Indeed, at that point, Dr. Qiu was a long-standing, internationally recognized scientist who had led the development of the Ebola monoclonal antibodies, which were—

[Nathaniel Erskine-Smith, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

I understand that.

Was she the instigator of the transfer, yes or no?

[Dr. Guillaume Poliquin]

Dr. Qiu was the primary interlocutor with WIV.

[Nathaniel Erskine-Smith, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

Okay.

At the same time, Presidia didn't get nearly the facts that CSIS was able to uncover, but they were contracted a week earlier, in December 2018. There's a preliminary report. They have investigative findings.

In their investigative findings, they say in relation to the undisclosed patent by Dr. Qiu that it's “highly improbable that she did not know”. They go on to note that there was a “collaboration” with a number of individuals, including at the Chinese Academy of Military Medical Sciences, for which there may not be a “Letter of Support” and further investigation was required.

At that point, there is an investigation under way specifically related to Dr. Qiu. I've seen the email chains. There are other PHAC officials who are obviously doing the approvals here.

How is it that there are no red flags?

I'll stay with Mr. Poliquin. You seem to know more. Why were there no red flags? How could there possibly not be red flags?

[Dr. Guillaume Poliquin]

As Ms. Jeffrey highlighted, China had been very active in the 2014 to 2016 west Africa Ebola outbreak—