Information & Ethics Committee on Oct. 30th, 2023

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

There would have been another invitation, again understanding that he's out of the country, for him to appear before the committee next Monday, but again, that was all predicated on the fact that we would have the report in front of us, Ms. Damoff. I believe the committee having the report in front of us would give us the ability to question the minister based on the content of the report.

It was all under the caveat that the minister will not appear unless and until we have that report. That report becomes critical for the committee to do its work, in my opinion.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Chair, when are we going to finish the TikTok social media study, then?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

We were thrown for a bit of a loop here this week because of Mr. Dufresne last week, and then we had other witnesses, some of whom were unavailable. I'm going to try to get to that as quickly as I can, but on this issue particularly, Ms. Damoff, I believe it is not just in the committee's best interest but also in the country's best interest to deal with this issue as soon as possible.

Just remind me, Madam Clerk, did we have up to two meetings scheduled for this?

[The Clerk]

The motion was amended for two meetings.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

For two meetings on...?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

It's for two meetings on this particular issue.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

I wasn't here when you passed the other motion. Just having heard TikTok appear here, having had one meeting on it and hearing about privacy issues when it comes to kids, I don't think you can say that one issue is more important than the other, Mr. Chair.

Even at the last meeting, you indicated, when we passed the motion, that we would be doing this after we finish what we tend to call the TikTok study, but it's much broader than that. It's about privacy concerns that Canadians have about social media and TikTok, particularly around our kids. Keeping our kids safe, Mr. Chair, should be something this committee is also really concerned about, and I think we are.

My understanding was that we were going to do the social media/TikTok review and the privacy concerns we have with that before we did the next motion. It seems like, now with Mr. Barrett's motion, we're prioritizing the other study. I don't disagree with putting timelines on it, and I think that's a good idea. You've obviously invited the minister for November 6, which, again, bumps the other study that we're doing.

I can't support Mr. Barrett's motion as it's written. I would also remind you that we need to prioritize the other study. Let's just get it done, and then we can move on to the next one.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Okay, thank you.

Ms. Khalid, you're next.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Thanks, Chair.

I hope you can appreciate my frustration. I've been waiting since 2021 to look into and to study how social media and its privacy concerns impact young kids in my constituency, how they impact young kids across our country, adults and seniors, and their safety, security and privacy.

In fact, Mr. Chair, I hate to do this, but I'm just going to quote you. You said, on October 18, talking specifically about this issue:

Thank you, Mr. Barrett.

The motion has been moved. I'm going to deem it in order, but I will caution the committee that, whichever way we want to go with this, as you stated, it's not going to start in the next couple of weeks. I want to make that clear because we have committed to and are focused on the social media study and that's the actual game plan that we have mapped out between the clerk and the analysts.

Then, you go on to say in that same meeting:

Okay. What I will do, with the help of the clerk and the analyst, is find out when the expected date of this report is to be released publicly, and if we can find out an answer to that. As I stated earlier, we're not going to start this study if the motion is adopted as amended in the next couple of weeks.

Chair, you have committed to this committee, time and time again, that you will prioritize the study on social media and its impact on the privacy of Canadians and young Canadians. So far, since 2021, we have had, at maximum, an hour and a half on this study. That's an hour and a half, Chair, out of three years. Now, today, I hear you say, “Oh no, we have other concerns that Canadians are concerned about.” I'm so sorry, Chair. Very respectfully, that is not your decision to make. It is the decision of the committee. The committee has decided this is a study they want to pursue.

For us to continually bring up motion after motion of political stunts, or whatever, to delay this study that is impacting young people in my community.... I've had two kids commit suicide this year, Chair. Two kids committed suicide in my riding, one of whom was a friend of my nephew, who went to school with him.

Chair, perhaps you don't understand how important this study is on what kids are going through nowadays. I would sincerely invite you to take a look at how kids and all Canadians are feeling about the impact of social media on their lives, given what is happening across the world right now. This study is probably the most important study we can have in our Parliament at this given time, given the graveness of what is happening across the world right now.

For us to revisit and to rehash these issues is absolutely insane to me. I can't begin to tell you how much my constituents are suffering. For me to have to sit here and have to explain why, again and again, for three years, Chair.... I can't begin to express to you what my frustration is. I want our government to take action on the impact of social media on Canadians: their privacy, safety and security. It matters to me, Chair. I really hoped it would matter to you and to members of this committee.

For me to sit here and to have to explain again why we should not have any meetings scheduled on whatever else is next on the agenda before we finish this study.... Chair, I'm baffled. I am absolutely baffled.

I'm really hoping, Chair, that Mr. Barrett can withdraw his motion and look at the timelines of his motion, instead of saying, “Oh, look, today we're meeting at 3:30 p.m., but by 8 p.m. I want this and this from X, Y and Z” and having these unreasonable timelines, knowing and understanding that we've already set aside the next committee meeting for this delegation to come and speak to us, to meet with us, knowing and understanding that we have passed a motion that prioritizes what Canadians are looking for, a motion that I care deeply about and that I know members across this committee care deeply about. Do we have to play politics with that, Chair?

I would very respectfully ask Mr. Barrett to withdraw his motion, to reconsider his timelines on that motion, knowing and understanding what the committee has already committed to and what Canadians are expecting this committee to do for us to ensure that we are working towards finding positive solutions for Canadians, including children, first and foremost, and their safety online and with social media. I would ask Mr. Barrett to withdraw his motion, look at those timelines and perhaps come back at a later time with a more reasonable timeline as to how we proceed on this committee.

Chair, I am not willing to put aside the study on social media for political games that the opposition may want to play. For me and the kids in my community who have committed suicide and those who are on the brink of mental health challenges because of social media issues, I am not willing to put this aside any longer, Chair.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you.

Mr. Green, go ahead, please.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I hadn't intended to be as active as I have been in this meeting today. Certainly, being remote and not having been at the last meeting, I think it is important for me to say that, up to this point, we've been working fairly well in terms of planning meetings with the executive and the subcommittee on the work we're supposed to be doing. I think you've done a commendable job in being non-partisan in your application of the work.

I do need to voice with you, on the record, my disappointment in what transpired last week as it related to what I would consider only a chair's prerogative to direct the schedule of this committee.

Committees, as you know, decide and direct the body of their work. You'll recall, in the last session, the concerns I raised around the haphazard manner in which we had two and three and four studies happening at the same time. This is a very serious committee, and one that I think deserves the kind of consistency and integrity around how we go about our work.

I do believe that Mr. Barrett presents really important motions that, I think, deserve study and deserve scrutiny by this committee. What I'm not on for is being at the whim of the Conservative caucus in terms of the application of the schedule. You'll note that Mr. Villemure and I, being third and fourth parties respectively, also have, within the subcommittee, valuable and important input on what the priorities of this committee should be.

I would say to you, sir, that what transpired last week, with the livestreaming and the circus and the fundraising that happened in that committee, is a problem. I'm going to say on the record, not in camera but in a very public way, that if that is going to be the tenor and the approach of this committee, you can expect a very different type of participation from me as a New Democrat.

I would hope that we could continue to unpack the critical issues being presented in a way that is thoughtful and that creates a basic amount of professional courtesy. I would also caution you, sir, not to use your chair's prerogative to supersede the will of this committee when decisions haven't been made for this committee. I would caution you against that.

I have a tremendous amount of respect for you, John, but I think it's important to state that, because I wasn't here and it certainly put my replacement in a bit of a predicament. It's now becoming a bit of a pattern over these couple of weeks. We're getting table-dropped this stuff where your urgent and important.... It's not you as the chair, but the Conservative caucus's motions become urgent and important, and we're seeing this in other committees too.

I'm not going to go on and on about this, but I think it's important that I publicly state, not having been here last week and seeing where this one is going, that Mr. Barrett knows this is something I absolutely support in its spirit. However, if there is a continued failure to consult, whether in a subcommittee capacity or what have you, on the schedule and the priorities of this committee, then you're not going to find a lot of co-operation from me.

That's the caution that I give. If it's the will of the mover to push it ahead anyway and to go out and say, “Look at this and let me raise money”, then, fine, by all means, do that. However, if the mover of the motion is serious and wants to get to work on this, then let's talk. Let's find a schedule where this works.

I'm saying this, Mr. Chair, as somebody who—as all the members will recall, except for the new ones—supported the Conservative opposition in continuing the work that we needed to continue when it was my opinion that the Liberals were using TikTok to pivot away from other important issues of the committee. I'm certainly trying to be consistent with the integrity I have around keeping focus, and I would ask him to do the same.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Mr. Kurek, I have you next.

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

Thanks very much, Chair.

Certainly, it's been interesting. I think each person around this table would highlight priorities they have. We've been able to do a great deal of work over the course of the last number of years I've had the privilege of being on this committee, and I look forward to continuing that work.

Specifically in regard to Mr. Barrett's motion, I think something that needs to be highlighted here is that if we had a government that was forthcoming with information that was requested of it, we wouldn't have spent the last—

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

I have a point of order, Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

I have Ms. Khalid.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

I don't think those kinds of comments are relevant with respect to the discussion we're having on this motion.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Okay.

Go ahead.

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

On a point of order, Chair, I think it's entirely relevant. If the member is concerned about the lack of forthcomingness.... She sits in the same caucus as the minister who has been requested to appear.

Chair, I think it would be incumbent upon us. This is a practical measure. I have not yet heard an amendment to extend the deadline to try to work collaboratively among parties, to try to figure out a path forward that could actually get this information, so that we could get the answers that Canadians are certainly seeking. I could speak at length, certainly, about what my constituents share with me on a daily basis about the priorities that the ethics committee should be looking at. I have had that opportunity in the past and certainly look forward to it again.

Chair, I think that as we approach this subject, we're now going on with a fairly lengthy debate on what is a motion to simply add some parameters around information that this committee has already requested. Had the government been forthcoming, we wouldn't be here. They haven't been. Therefore, we're saying that it's time to be forthcoming. I think that it is not only reasonable but incumbent upon us to ensure that happens. If members of the Liberal Party or other parties have a suggestion as to what that should look like.... Certainly, I won't pretend to speak for my colleagues here, but I think there would be a willingness for us to entertain that as a conversation, so that we could continue doing the work that we've all talked about at length around this committee table and that we want this committee to do.

With that, Chair, let's continue to do the work that we've been talking about.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Mr. Kurek.

I'm just going to remind the committee that there are a couple of sensitive issues we need to deal with in camera as well, some sensitive issues related to previous witness testimony, so I would like an opportunity to do that.

Ms. Damoff, I have you next. Go ahead.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

I'm going to suggest some amendments to Mr. Barrett's motion: changing the time and date to 5 p.m. tomorrow, October 31; asking the person he has asked to appear, the assistant deputy minister, to appear with officials when the minister comes—he would probably be here anyway, but that's just to ensure that this individual is with the officials when he appears; and also, Chair, that you call a subcommittee meeting to get a work plan for us.

We just passed a motion from Mr. Villemure about having the RCMP come. That issue was so important to you last week, Chair, that you called a meeting without consulting any of us, and Mr. Barrett proceeded to post on Facebook Live and to post all of our email addresses. Do you know, Mr. Barrett, that we had to create a misogyny subfolder in my inbox because of the type of emails we got after you posted that? I don't know if you're aware of just how horrific were the emails that we got. I could send some of them to you, Michael, but based on your using that meeting, which was your number one priority last week....

Those are the changes I'd like to see, Mr. Chair: that you call a subcommittee meeting; that the time be amended to 5 p.m. tomorrow; and that the ADM—I don't remember the gentleman's name—be asked to appear with officials when the minister appears.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Ms. Damoff.

The amendment is on the floor to change the deadline for the report to be given to the committee to 5 p.m. tomorrow; to call a subcommittee meeting, I assume as soon as is reasonably practicable; and then the other one is to have Mr. McConnachie appear when the minister appears.

Is that correct?

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

With officials when the minister appears.... I don't think we want to take time away from the minister himself.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Well, typically, if the minister does accept an invitation, he would come for an hour, and then we'd have officials right after that.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

That's right, yes, and they're usually at the table when he's here anyway, but I don't want to say that he is appearing with equal status with the minister.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

I see. Okay. Thank you.

We have an amendment on the floor.

Mr. Green, go ahead, please.