Procedure and House Affairs Committee on May 4th, 2023

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

It was about 28 seconds, for the record, so maybe you can meet me halfway.

Go ahead, Ms. Sahota.

[Ruby Sahota, Liberal, Brampton North, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I think that was a very good line of questioning. I'm really interested in learning more about growth. Although it may be slower, there is still growth. I'm surprised by that. I didn't realize there was growth happening in northern Ontario. I appreciate the offer to increase staffing in my riding. If only you had the power. I wish I could take you up on that.

My constituency riding work is very intense, but after listening to all of the panellists today, I sympathize with how difficult representing northern rural ridings must be, with having to travel such large distances. I know we don't serve geography necessarily, but the smaller communities you serve are so far apart from each other, and in order to serve them, you have to travel through those geographic locations to get to them and to listen to them.

I would love to learn from the members who didn't get to speak so far.

Ms. Lapointe, Mr. Serré and Mr. Sheehan, could you let me know what the growth has been like in your ridings, what challenges you find in terms of how many communities you serve and how long it takes you to get to those communities? It was also mentioned by Mrs. Hughes that there hadn't been consultations that were accessible to the public in your areas. Could you shed some more light on where the consultations were located in your ridings and whether there were virtual options? Were there issues with the virtual options? This is about the many challenges your regions must face.

Go ahead, Mr. Serré.

[Marc Serré, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

There are a number of things. First, there was an in-person consultation in Timmins, which is a three-and-a-half hour drive from my area and six hours from Sault Ste. Marie. The affected riding was Algoma—Kapuskasing, which is even another five to six hours. There's nothing wrong with having the consultation in Timmins, but that wasn't the affected riding, so that was bizarre and we tried to have it changed. There was a virtual option, which is difficult as some areas don't have high-speed Internet. The commission added that at the end because there were so many submissions.

You saw the number of submissions in my package. Nickel Belt received the second-largest number of submissions of any riding in Ontario, but essentially you see that colleges, mayors, organizations, francophones and first nations objected.

Also, to Marilyn's point, in 2012 the commission stayed with the status quo on the 10 seats. Why in 10 years did they change it? It is because they say it's their mandate to have one additional seat in Ontario. That's why the recommendation for something new—for example, in a larger riding that has a population of 140,000 or 150,000—is to add two staff members. You could do that to deal with the population, but you can't split an MP in two.

What was also said here is that in rural areas, there are a large number of—and I'll mention the party—PPC votes in northern Ontario because people are disenfranchised with the political system. If we look at the increase in votes, it was close to 10% in Nickel Belt on the PPC side. Rural areas are being...and it's going to be even worse now because from 10 seats, we're going to nine seats.

To answer that question, as far as the representation itself is concerned, it's a big issue for us moving forward.

[Ruby Sahota, Liberal, Brampton North, ON]

Go ahead, Mr. Sheehan.

[Terry Sheehan, Liberal, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

I think you're asking about the growth of 2.8%. That's amazing. I've spent my life in business and economic development in northern Ontario and we were always below growth. We didn't have any growth. That growth is from indigenous populations and immigration. We have newcomers coming in not just to go to school but to live, and they're choosing northern Ontario as their first destination. It's great. We're seeing so many really cool things happening all across there.

However, what I'm afraid of, and I've mentioned this before.... In particular, we saw some other growth too during COVID‑19. People who were jammed in larger urban centres who may have lived in northern Ontario have chosen to return. That trend started, and you're seeing it more and more when you're communicating with residents in northern Ontario. That trend is not going to stop, because people can do things virtually. They can combine virtual with in-person stuff too.

My point is that 2.8% is mega huge for northern Ontario. My fear is that what the commission has done is going to negatively affect that growth, and we do not want to backslide.

I hope I've answered your question on the growth piece. I'll turn it to Viviane.

[Viviane LaPointe, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

I'll just say that from the beginning of this process, we all came together and have addressed the commission's report as a collectivity. Our position, though, was never status quo.

We understand the commission's work and the very difficult task before it. There are some regions with population growth and some have population decline. That is why it is embedded in the act that electoral boundaries be reviewed every 10 years.

We were always willing to work with the commission to look at some riding changes. I think what is different and new for us is that the commission created two new additional “extraordinary circumstance” ridings. As we know, when you make decisions, it has a domino effect on other ridings. I would suggest to you that it created a really severe domino effect to the northeast.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you.

Ms. Gaudreau, go ahead.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Respected colleagues, I want to say that this is the same situation we had a month ago; it is a cut and paste. Honestly, it disheartens me.

We have really heard all the criteria—for example, the size of the territory and the services provided. You can have lots of people everywhere, but you need a budget. We also heard about the ability to have Internet access. For that, Internet services must be available on the territory. Then we heard about fairness in representation. On top of that, we learned that some citizens, who did not have Internet access at home, had to drive two hours to attend consultations in person. We also experienced this situation in Laurentides—Labelle, even though the riding is smaller than Abitibi—Témiscamingue.

From the beginning, we have been hearing about criteria, thresholds and all that. Obviously, the criteria exist. The problem is not the lack of criteria or representativeness. It's more about what gets prioritized.

Personally, I am already thinking about the next redistribution process. I would hope that we will be listened to, that our report will be read, and that the objections that are valid and warranted will be heard. Each time, the commissions ask members of Parliament to complete the consultations and give them more information because they need to be heard.

If I have any hope, it is because of what I saw in the consultations about my own riding. I, too, completely disapproved of the idea of eastern Quebec having one less riding and people having to travel thousands of kilometres. Instead of having three regions, six regional county municipalities and fragmented municipalities, I made another proposal, and they listened to me, or listened to the community, I should say.

I would hope that, even though this is meant to be a final report, the objections made will be heard, pending the next redistribution process, which is 10 years away. That's really one of my concerns. That's why I'm discouraged. Maybe it's also because it's Thursday and we've had a good week.

I have one or two minutes left. I'd like you to use that time to tell us about the criteria. You are the ones who are living with the situation in terms of services to citizens. What criteria should be prioritized?

[Marc Serré, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

I must say that the desired range of 116,000 people, which applies across Ontario, is unacceptable. Ontarian and francophone associations have asked us to ensure that communities of interest and francophone communities will be respected in each riding. I am talking about the Association canadienne-française de l'Ontario du Grand Sudbury and other francophone community groups.

As was mentioned earlier, does the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs have the authority to recommend to the Board of Internal Economy that it look at ridings? Extra money is given to rural ridings, but I believe that extra money should also be given to ridings of 140,000 people. That way we can keep our ridings. That's a pretty specific recommendation that you can make. It would ensure that we don't fall to eight ridings after the next redistricting process in 10 years.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

The problem is that I've been through three rounds. In northern Ontario, it has been traumatic. I was elected after they ripped apart the ridings the last time. It took 10 years to build a community of interest. Then they suddenly said, “Well, that community of interest no longer exists.”

The Kapuskasing region, which is heavily francophone, fought for a long time to have its voice heard. Now it's going to be thrown in with Timmins, and all of my other communities are taken out.

I will quickly say that what we need to do in the future is this: The commission has to come forward and say, “What are people thinking?” There are ways.... None of our ridings make sense. They're all arbitrary and crazy. We've learned to work with them.

We probably would have brought a lot of opportunities to say these communities of interest.... We've talked among ourselves. None of that happened. They said, “This is what it's going to be.” Then, when there was overwhelming objection from every single economic, community and cultural organization—

[Carol Hughes, NDP, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

Political bodies....

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

—and from political bodies, it was overwhelming. There was no ability for people to be heard.

Again, it's outrageous that in northern Ontario, someone had to drive six hours at night on northern Ontario roads to get from Sault Ste. Marie to Timmins to be heard. They wouldn't even go to the ridings that were being cut.

There needs to be a pre-discussion. Come forward with a plan, then let citizens have options.

[Carol Hughes, NDP, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

I agree with my colleagues. It is obvious that, in northern Ontario, providing services to people is difficult. I go from community to community to provide community workshops. However, we must not forget that it is very difficult for members to travel. The territory to be covered is stretched out, and it will be even more so. For example, I have to drive to Ottawa, which is a six-hour drive. There are almost no flights I can take. The schedule is really inconvenient for us as MPs. We go home on Friday night, have Saturday in our constituency, then have to come back to Ottawa on Sunday.

When the riding of Kiiwetinoong—Mushkegowuk was suggested, we pointed out that the MP would have to arrive and leave in the same day, as there are no flight options. This does not really provide the representation that people need. We really need to consider providing representation to people, as well as their need to be represented.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you.

Go ahead, Ms. Blaney.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you.

I thank everyone testifying today.

My first question is for MP Angus.

Is your opposition to cutting a seat in northern Ontario about protecting your own riding?

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

I think that's a very fair question. I think those are questions we always have to consider.

Obviously we check the poll data based on what we're going to face. In the new riding, I pick up a 19-point win based on electoral votes over the second-place party. I'm not here for me. I'm thinking, “Who the hell is ever going to want to run in that riding when I'm gone?” That's the issue. It is about representation. Personally I win better, but we lose bigger.

I want to say, quickly, that we've talked about distance. We haven't talked about the fact that many in my communities have no roads. Do you know that it's cheaper for you to fly to Portugal for the weekend and stay in a hotel with your spouse than it is for one of my citizens from Peawanuck to come to my constituency office in Timmins? The cost of flying to get to my office—for one of my citizens—is usually about $2,000 to $3,000. There's no other way to get to my office. I have to rent planes to go there.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you for that.

I think this is the important part. I have a rural riding as well, and I have quite a few hours.... I'm on an island and I represent part of the Mainland. I know there are a lot of communities in my riding accessible only by float plane or boat that do not have the services, so they have to travel a significant amount of time to get basic services.

I think what you all talked about was the fact that your offices provide services to people that an urban riding would never have to provide. There is no other resource.

I'm wondering whether you could talk about the importance of that, and what it means to lose a seat in this region for people trying to access those services.

Madame Hughes, I'll start with you.

[Carol Hughes, NDP, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

Certainly, that is a challenge.

It's important for people to access our services. We've been getting tons of immigration. I understand that the urban areas certainly get that as well, but it's more challenging for us because we don't have as many of the resources as they have in the bigger centres.

For individuals, as Charlie has said, the travel is substantial. I have to fly to Sudbury or Sault Ste. Marie to get there, and it's still a couple of hours' drive to my riding to go to one of my offices.

In order to provide proper representation to individuals, yes, we need better budgets, but we also need to make sure that MPs are able to get to constituents to provide those types of services. As mentioned over and over again, this is about representation in Parliament, and this is about representation for individuals themselves.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Does anyone else from the table want to answer the question?

[Terry Sheehan, Liberal, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

I'll add some stuff to the two comments made.

Sault Ste. Marie itself has an excellent high-speed Internet connection, some top stuff. We have the Ontario Lottery and Gaming Corporation, which is a huge backbone there. I was able to do my presentation virtually to the commission. I pointed out to them as well that if you drive north of Sault Ste. Marie towards Wawa, Internet and cell service are non-existent in most places. That highway is closed so many times in the winter—if anybody has ever driven across Highway 17—and not for hours but for days sometimes. It's about fairness, it's about equity and it's about representation. I draw that...not only in the winter but for all of northern Ontario.

There are highway collisions. It's not a four-lane highway; it's a two-lane highway. Highway collisions with wildlife take a lot of lives, and it's very unfortunate.

By creating less representation that's going down, it's forcing, as the other two speakers have mentioned, people to drive and travel more. That's a safety issue. It's also an issue about equity—being rich versus poverty. Some people can afford a satellite connection, but in many places in northern Ontario, it's very difficult to get because of the storms and it's unreliable. My point is that it's about equity, and taking a seat away is not proper.

The biggest problem is that we're comparing northern Ontario to southern Ontario, which has been mentioned by Mr. Serré. It's about population. However, northern Ontario has more in common, probably, with northern Quebec, northern Saskatchewan, northern Alberta and all the north regions. There, the commission applies different mathematical formulas. Wherever you live in this great country, you should be treated the same.

[Marc Serré, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

If I may, I'll add.

Obviously, there is the higher population of seniors, the transportation issues and the Internet issues, as indicated.

The last time northern Ontario lost a seat was in 2004. It was my uncle Ben Serré's riding of Timiskaming—Cochrane that was divided. Federally, there were 10 seats in 2004, and provincially there were 11 seats because they used to match them provincially and federally. Then the Ontario government did a preconsultation—and I'm sure you saw that in your reports and I referenced it in my report—and it added seats so there are 13 provincial seats in northern Ontario. Now we're down to nine.

Why is it that the the federal institution does not have the same representation as we do provincially? There are 13 MPPs and nine MPs, and we're going to get eight the next time. We're asking you to really push back in a united and strong way.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you.

We will now have a quick couple of minutes for anybody who has outstanding questions.

Go ahead, Ms. Gladu.

[Marilyn Gladu, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

Thanks so much.

I want to return to the question that noted the commission was given a bunch of information and didn't appear to listen. What new information would you put forward that it should hear?

I'll start with Mr. Serré.

[Marc Serré, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

As indicated earlier, it received submissions from colleges, mayors, institutions and the community, and in 2004 and 2012.... There is new information today that we're struggling to try to bring up. One is this issue: Can you, as PROC, make a recommendation to BOIE to relook at how we fund MP offices?

As I indicated earlier, there is a population of 140,000 or 150,000, so adding a few extra staff members may be helpful to serve your constituents, versus in northern Ontario, where we're adding more money but it's not going to help an MP. We can't service the area and we can't get to MPs.