Information & Ethics Committee on April 30th, 2024

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Go ahead, Mr. Green, for two and a half minutes.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Thank you.

I should note that there were some additional interpretation issues on the back end of this broadcast, but I digress.

Although education is certainly a big, proactive step on the continuum of misinformation and disinformation, I wonder if the witnesses could provide some insight, again, in terms of accountability from their perspective. If there's anything missing, what should we be considering at this committee as recommendations to help provide better legislative, regulatory and, in some instances, perhaps criminal responses to accountability for the willful spread? I give reference to the way in which these are sometimes used to instill hate, incite political and social violence and target minority groups. I referenced the trans community, the indigenous community, the Black community, the Jewish community and the Muslim community, you name it.

Could you reflect on how we can better hold people accountable? This could include platforms or corporations, more broadly.

[Matthew Johnson]

Outside education we don't have recommendations on policy, because that's outside our mandate. What I can say from our research is that many people who have been victims of some of the things that you've been describing have said that when they have gone to law enforcement for support, the people they've encountered have not been sufficiently well informed about these phenomena.

Just as it is important to have policy-makers and parliamentarians trained in these issues, it's very important to support law enforcement and make sure that they have been educated in these issues. Then, when someone comes to them with one of these issues, or, for instance, has been the victim of pornographic deepfake technology, which we know is in fact the vast majority of uses of that, they are familiar with the laws and regulations. They would understand enough about the digital media world that they would be able to help.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

That's good. Thank you very much.

Go ahead, Mr. White.

[Patrick White]

First of all, we need to protect, ASAP, the intellectual property of media and artists across Canada from the effects of AI right now. It will have a huge effect on intellectual property in Canada. Prohibit the use of deepfakes, ASAP.

As far as social networks are concerned, we need to legislate to impose and compel total transparency of algorithms to better understand what's going on in terms of the flow of information and disinformation.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Mr. White.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Mr. Green.

That concludes the panel.

I want to thank all of our witnesses, Ms. Hill, Mr. Johnson and Mr. White, for being here today and participating in this important study. On behalf of Canadians, thank you for your work. On behalf of the committee, thank you for coming. I'm going to dismiss you.

We are going to deal with a bit of committee business here. As you know, we received a letter from the RCMP commissioner based on Mr. Green's request. The letter came in on April 26. That's in relation to SNC-Lavalin.

I just want to inform the committee that we're still waiting for the translated documents from Mr. Wernick. What I need the committee to consider is where we go, based on what we've received not just from the RCMP commissioner but also from Mr. Wernick. I expect that should be coming soon from translation.

I know that the study called for one meeting, but if there's any consideration that any additional work needs to be done on this, I want the committee to consider that as we move forward.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

I'm a little confused. Are you asking us to approve something now, before we even have the information?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

No. We've received information from the RCMP commissioner. We'll be getting the other information from Mr. Wernick. We have not finalized the study. Based on this and on what we get from Mr. Wernick, I'm going to need direction from committee as to where you want to go on SNC-Lavalin.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Do you know when we're getting it translated?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

It should be coming soon. The expectation was the 29th, which was yesterday. It should be coming soon.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Okay, thanks.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Go ahead, Monsieur Villemure.

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

I have a scheduling question. I'd like to know how much time has been allotted for the discussion about the committee's work, given that our presence is required elsewhere. Is the meeting ending at 1:00 p.m.?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Mr. Barrett has something he'd like to say. We'll be done at 1:05.

Go ahead, Mr. Housefather.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Mr. Chair, I want to mention that I found some things in the RCMP letter a bit strange, in particular blaming the war in Ukraine for the delay in terms of the transmission of the information. Would there be a consideration to ask them further questions about that?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

We could.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Having read the response, I—

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

This is why I brought it up today. There are some things that perhaps were of concern to committee members. If there are concerns, I would ask that you address them to the clerk.

Again, consider it as we move forward on the SNC-Lavalin issue, because we haven't completed that study. It's pending this information and the other information from Mr. Wernick. We may, in fact, want to call Commissioner Duheme back. We may want to provide some clarification. We've certainly been getting into the letter writing business in this committee lately.

Go ahead, Mr. Barrett.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Chair, with the last five minutes I have a motion I'd like to move.

That, pursuant to Standing Order 108(3)(h) and in light of recent media reports, the committee undertake a study into Minister Randy Boissonnault’s alleged contravention of ethics and lobbying laws forthwith; that the committee invite Minister Randy Boissonnault and Kirsten Poon to testify individually in addition to any other relevant witnesses; and that the committee report its findings to the House.

Chair, this has been circulated to all members of the committee in both official languages. I'll speak to it briefly, knowing that we have limited time.

We have a mandate at this committee to review matters of this nature, and this is just the latest in a series of unethical dealings by the Trudeau government. It's bombshell news that broke in Global News. This is a Trudeau government minister involved in lobbying the government. There is potential illegality with respect to the Lobbying Act and, of course, questions of the Conflict of Interest Act and the conflict of interest code for members.

Minister Boissonnault lost his seat in the 2019 election, and he restarted his company, Xennex, to lobby the Trudeau government, for which he was previously an MP. The minister tried to shield this from the public by hiding behind his business partner and lobbyist. Their only client was the Edmonton International Airport. They received $25 million in pandemic recovery funds in 2021, one month before he was named the Liberal candidate and just two months before the federal election.

Meetings took place in 2021 and 2022 that helped bring in $110 million in federal grants to the Edmonton International Airport. It was revealed that the minister and his lobbyist business partner still have ties. In fact, Mr. Randy Boissonnault withheld the name of the business that he was receiving payments from, and he failed to disclose the name of Navis Group, which was rebranded from his company. It's a bit of a sleight of hand here, Chair—the trading name versus the corporate name. Someone would have to do a corporate records search to determine that this deception was happening.

This company that he's receiving payments from is simultaneously lobbying the government, including the finance department, for whom he was the associate finance minister. They got direct access to the finance minister and Deputy Prime Minister for a meeting on hydrogen fuel development, and, within months of the meeting, Chair, the minister made an announcement at the Edmonton International Airport, awarding local hydrogen fuel initiatives with $9.74 million in federal funds.

It's troubling. It's unacceptable. Obviously, this wouldn't be the kind of practice that Canadians would accept in private business, but it is a pattern with this Trudeau Liberal government. They're once again caught doing business unethically with taxpayer funds. It's undermining public trust. That's why we need to have hearings on this, Chair, and I look forward to the motion passing swiftly.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Just so I'm clear, you're moving the motion—is that correct?

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Yes, I am.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Okay, we're in committee business. The motion has been properly moved.

Mr. Fisher, I'm sorry I missed your hand before. I'm going to give you the opportunity to speak, but we are dealing with a motion right now. Is it regarding this?

I have to adjourn the meeting at 1:05. We don't have any other resources, so either way, whether or not we start this now, it's going to end at 1:05.

You have a couple of minutes, and then I'm going to have to cut you off.