Industry Committee on Feb. 15th, 2023

[Jeremy Patzer, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

I think the words we use when we draft legislation are extremely important. When we say that the sole purpose for this bill is to interoperate, it respects that there are certain parts of software that aren't going to be accessible to the short-line manufacturer. It does ensure that there's still that privacy component, but it will still protect the end-user's privacy too.

Again, this is more so around manufacturing, so it shouldn't be as much of an issue. The general privacy concerns that would arise from this are going to be around the proprietary software that OEMs do have. Because of the wording we're using in this bill to make sure that it's the sole purpose to make a product interoperate, it will protect certain data.

[Ryan Williams, Conservative, Bay of Quinte, ON]

Okay.

This is the last question, sir. Does any jurisdiction in the world oppose interoperability? Have you heard of any companies or anyone opposed to this? Has this generally been approved by every jurisdiction that's looked at it?

[Jeremy Patzer, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Of the ones that are looking at it, yes, they're looking to figure out how they can be more open with this. Yes, it's been approved in most places that have done it. I'm not aware of anybody who's looked at it and said no thanks. I think everywhere it's been looked at, they've implemented something or are actively moving to implement something.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joël Lightbound]

Thank you very much.

For our last round of questions, we go to Mr. Dong.

[Han Dong, Liberal, Don Valley North, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

MP Patzer, thank you very much for bringing this forward. Very much like my NDP colleague Mr. Masse, I admire your determination and the energy you're putting into this bill.

Earlier you talked about a comparison or similarities with Bill C-244. Can you break it down a little bit for the audience? What does your bill do that is different from Bill C-244?

[Jeremy Patzer, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Yes. Bill C-244 allows you to circumvent a TPM for the purpose of a product that would make something...or allow you to have a device that would diagnose, maintain and repair. There's an ability to circumvent a TPM to accomplish that. With my bill, the circumvention of the TPM is so that you can access the information you need to make your product interoperate. The information you would be getting to make your product interoperate wouldn't be used for right to repair. It would only be to make your product interoperate with another.

Again, it's trying to get the signalling information from a combine to make all the components on your header work. That way, you can change the speeds. Just the way technology has changed, a header is a lot more complex than it used to be. You need that signalling information.

That's what these companies are looking for. This bill enables them to circumvent a TPM to get the signalling information they need to make their product work, whereas right to repair is to get the data you need to be able to diagnose, maintain or repair a product.

[Han Dong, Liberal, Don Valley North, ON]

Right.

[Jeremy Patzer, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

It's similar but quite different in the same breath.

[Han Dong, Liberal, Don Valley North, ON]

Part of the reason I'm asking this is that, during the testimony from different witnesses on Bill C-244, we heard quite a bit of concern around warranties and whatnot. Would this void warranties? What's your view on that?

[Jeremy Patzer, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Well, there are a few issues there. Obviously, if somebody tells you that you can only repair here, that's anti-competitive. Tied selling is also not allowed. There's already a framework against tied selling. If you're going to say that if you buy this machine, you can only use this product on it, that's tied selling. You're technically not allowed to do that in this country.

It's the same with warranty. As a consumer, when you buy a product, you have the right to get that fixed wherever is suitable for you. Now, whether you're going to your local repair shop or to the OEM repair shop, both technicians are going to be certified technicians. They know how to work with individual components, right?

When you're innovating, when you're building something, innovation is quite often born from necessity. Many farmers are the ones who have developed and built a product because they realize, in using other products, that, boy, those don't actually match the needs of what they need on their farms.

Again, going back to the example of Honey Bee, the company started in two brothers' shop on their farm in Bracken, Saskatchewan. They wanted to build a product that actually worked better for what the growing conditions were. They had many other products that they built just out of their shop, too.

Many companies have that same start, where it's like, “This issue isn't.... I can't do this, or I can't do that.” Then it's like, “Okay, well, I'm going to make the product that is going to do that.”

My bill is about allowing people like that who think like that to have the capacity to be able to identify a problem and make a product that's going to fill the gap. It allows them to do that. With their being able to do that, it also pushes the big guys to make better products, as well, because people are going to buy other products. Everybody starts making better products because you get the small guy making a product that is superior to the big guy's. Then the big guy has to step his game up, too.

[Han Dong, Liberal, Don Valley North, ON]

I represent an urban community. We don't have large manufacturing in my riding. We don't have farming equipment producers right now. I know we can make the argument that everything is connected, but what kind of benefit would my constituents see if this bill does pass?

[Jeremy Patzer, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

In the digital world, I mean, interoperating.... Take your phone and see how many devices you can connect to with your phone. Make your phone do work on something else. That in and of itself is interoperability right there.

When you look at the digital scape, there are a lot of different things out there. This would help drive innovation in the digital sense, as well. Smart homes, making your home more efficient....

[Han Dong, Liberal, Don Valley North, ON]

The Internet of things.

[Jeremy Patzer, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Yes, the Internet of things. There are definitely benefits there to be had.

You know, at the end of the day, if you're in an urban riding like yours, basically all of the products that the people in your riding have came from rural Canada or rural somewhere because the food had to be produced somewhere. The products used to build their homes didn't just come from the hardware store; they, obviously, came from out in the forest somewhere. It's about enabling industry outside of the city to do what needs to be done to allow those products to flow into the city, into the urban areas. That way consumers and users have products. They have choice. They have innovation that can be utilized. Again, it's not always going to be combines and headers. It might be your phone and the way it airplays to your TV, the way that it connects to your Chromecast. It might be different things like that.

Again, this bill is just about driving innovation. It's making sure that if you want to have a product that's on here that's going to work on a completely different brand name.... It might help and aid with that because that's interoperability. It let's you get the information you need from that product to make your product work with that product.

[Han Dong, Liberal, Don Valley North, ON]

Sounds good. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joël Lightbound]

Well, that concludes the first hour.

Thank you, Mr. Patzer, for your thoughtful presentation to the committee. On behalf of all of us, I commend you for your work on this. We look forward to studying it in more detail.

I will now briefly suspend for us to prepare for the second hour.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joël Lightbound]

Honourable members, we are back.

Pursuant to the order of reference of Wednesday, October 5, 2022, this is Bill C-244, an act to amend the Copyright Act (diagnosis, maintenance and repair). We are going to go through it clause-by-clause.

I want to highlight that we have with us, from the Department of Industry, Patrick Blanar, director, copyright and trademark policy directorate, joining us by Zoom; and Pierre-Luc Racine, policy adviser, copyright and trademark policy directorate, also with us by Zoom, to answer any questions we may have.

You are all familiar with the process. It's not the first time you have gone through this, and hopefully it will go smoothly as we go through clause-by-clause.

We have gone through this only once, so bear with me. I am still relatively inexperienced.

(On clause 1)

Shall clause 1 carry?

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Yes.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joël Lightbound]

Thank you, Mr. Perkins.

Go ahead, Ms. Lapointe.

[Viviane LaPointe, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I had some IT issues.

I would like to recommend that we remove this clause in its entirety. The Copyright Act already prohibits the circumvention of TPMs. When we talk about “work”, it includes computer programs. The clause is unnecessary and the recommendation is that it be removed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joël Lightbound]

There is a proposition to remove clause 1 entirely.

Yes, Mr. Perkins.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

I have a question. Isn't it adding “computer program”? The underlying part of the bill is the new part of the provision in the act, right?

[The Chair, Liberal, Joël Lightbound]

There is a proposition by Madame Lapointe to vote down clause 1 of Bill C-244. Do we need to go through a vote, or is there a—?

[Andy Fillmore, Liberal, Halifax, NS]

I could take a—

[The Chair, Liberal, Joël Lightbound]

Yes, Mr. Fillmore.