Public Safety Committee on March 21st, 2024

[Jennifer O'Connell, Liberal, Pickering—Uxbridge, ON]

Thank you.

Director Vigneault, I have a similar question for you with your organization and the members serving. There were recent media reports that there are challenges in terms of reporting, given the nature of some of the work that CSIS members might do in terms of protection of identity, which all makes sense.

How are you ensuring that, within the service, you're protecting employees and ensuring that the nature of their work doesn't create some sort of loophole in terms of reporting and the protection of members of the service, in particular women in this case, to be able to report, and obviously, then, doing the additional work to make sure it's a safe workplace for everyone?

[David Vigneault, Director, Canadian Security Intelligence Service]

I welcome this question from the member. This is a very serious issue. I have to say I don't want this to become a bumper sticker because everybody says it, but when we say that it is inappropriate and it will not be tolerated, I can tell you that is exactly the case at CSIS. I have made a personal commitment to create an ombudsperson, even though we have very robust internal processes and it has been recognized recently by the Federal Court of Appeal that our processes to investigate are adequate to address these issues. It's more important to go over and above that, so we'll have a separate ombudsperson to look into this.

I have also committed to reporting publicly on an annual basis any cases of wrongdoing, which will, of course, include any cases of sexual violence. I want to take this opportunity to say personally that my heart goes out to anybody who has been affected by sexual violence. I made a commitment to all of my employees when I talked to them recently that if there are any issues that affect them, they are to bring them to me personally.

I also made it very clear, and I think it's important because of the case you referred to, Ms. O'Connell, that the media reporting unfortunately had very serious inaccuracies in it. I publicly corrected the record within 24 hours to say that there's absolutely nothing that prevents an employee who has been a victim of a crime from engaging with the police. I've made that very clear publicly and to all of my employees. Hopefully that will clear up the ambiguity, but I welcome the question.

CSIS, along with other organizations in our country, needs to continue to do the best for people who are victims of sexual violence.

[Jennifer O'Connell, Liberal, Pickering—Uxbridge, ON]

Thank you. I think it's important that we have that discussion here today. Thank you for both coming and sharing that.

I want to move quickly, because I have limited time.

Commissioner Kelly, you've spoken before at this committee with regard to the reclassification of inmates and prisoners. You've said that, under the previous Conservative language around “most appropriate”—I believe your officials have said this in the media as well—and the threshold used, the evaluation that your team collectively does to make these decisions would still have happened because “most appropriate” is also building into those other factors.

Maybe you could list some of the factors that actually go into making transfer reclassification decisions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Heath MacDonald]

Thank you, Ms. O'Connell. Your time is up. Perhaps one of your teammates can follow up with Ms. Kelly, and she can answer it then.

Ms. Michaud, please go ahead for two and a half minutes.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I have a question for representatives of the Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness.

The mandate letter of the Minister of Public Safety states that he must “work … to make our communities safe and increase forest resilience to wildfire, including training 1,000 new community-based firefighters, investing in equipment and other measures to reduce risks from wildfires”.

I recently met with people from a union that represents forest firefighters across Canada. I was told that these firefighters weren't recognized in the same way as regular firefighters, that they didn't have the same benefits or the same type of equipment.

I don't know if you know why forest firefighters aren't recognized in the same way as other firefighters. I was told that it wasn't necessarily a legislative or regulatory change that was needed, and that if we simply amended the National Occupational Classification, that could solve the problem.

Could you tell us more about that?

[Tricia Geddes, Associate Deputy Minister, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness]

I thank the member for her question, Mr. Chair.

I will say a couple of things first. I want to comment on what an extremely difficult last season it was for forest fires in this country. We're anticipating another season ahead of us that's going to be quite stressful for the country. Ensuring that the forest firefighters who work with us in the area have the best possible supports is really important to our being as well prepared, or better prepared, this year than we were last year.

Natural Resources Canada has ownership of some of those aspects of how we support firefighters in this country. Madame Michaud, I'm very happy to commit to following up with you in terms of how we can address that very specific question.

Thank you very much.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

That's fine, thank you.

I'd now like to put a question to the Canada Border Services Agency representative.

The Minister announced an investment of $28 million to fight the scourge of auto theft in the country, of which $5.9 million will go to increase the agency's criminal intelligence capabilities; $5.9 million will support officers who conduct container inspections; $4 million will go to the development of new technologies; $3.5 million will increase the capacity to examine containers, specifically in the Greater Toronto Area.

Has all this money been deposited in the agency's account? How does it work? Are you already in a position to implement new policies to help officers do their jobs?

Also, may I mention that we talk a lot about the Port of Montreal and containers, but we also talk about trains, about what's going out of the country versus what's coming in. Should we perhaps modify the agency's mandate to also take a look at what's going out of the country?

[Ted Gallivan, Executive Vice-President, Canada Border Services Agency]

As we speak, we have already increased our efforts on this front even before we officially receive the funds, especially with regard to the Port of Montreal, where the seized cars constitute evidence that helps police forces advance criminal investigations.

We work closely with the Sûreté du Québec and the Service de Police de la Ville de Montréal, which represent police forces across the country to some extent, to ensure that protocols are clear.

The agency has increased its capacity to open containers and seize vehicles. We do this in partnership with police forces, because one of the concerns that was conveyed was about the huge quantity of cars.

We're also working to prevent theft. The rail network and stations are one of the focal points, and we're trying to share the data we have regarding the identity of the importer and the transporter, to help police forces dismantle the networks that move the cars.

I can confirm that the agency remains determined to act on all information given to us by police forces across the country. If they have a clue that a container contains a stolen car, our commitment is to stop it, open it and send the evidence to the police.

[The Chair, Liberal, Heath MacDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Gallivan and Madame Michaud.

We'll move on to Mr. Julian, please.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to go to you, Ms. Kelly and Ms. Oades. We've been talking at public safety about the horrific crimes of some of these offenders who have been transferred to medium security—Bernardo, Magnotta, Williams—and I have two questions.

First off, is there a higher risk of escape at a medium-security prison than at a maximum-security prison?

Secondly, Ms. Oades, is there a greater possibility that inmates who were in medium security would be granted parole at the end of their sentence? The crimes these individuals committed are horrific. It is very clear that Canadians want to be protected from these predators for the remainder of their lives.

These are two key questions that I'd love to have responses on.

[Anne Kelly]

On the first one, in terms of escapes, the perimeter security for maximum and medium security is the same. We have fences. We have walls. We have patrols. We also have armed correctional officers.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

My question is specifically this: If you look at the statistics, is there a greater likelihood of escape from a medium-security prison than a maximum-security prison?

[Anne Kelly]

I would say no. Most of our escapes are from minimum security. That's where they occur.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Is it possible that you could share those figures with the committee to indicate the rate of escapes at maximum-security and medium-security prisons?

[Anne Kelly]

Yes. I could do that.

On your second question—

[Jennifer Oades, Chairperson, Parole Board of Canada]

That one was for me.

[Anne Kelly]

It was for you. I'm sorry.

[Jennifer Oades]

I think it's logical, just in terms of reasoning, that someone who is in a maximum-security institution is much less likely to be released by the parole board than one who is in a minimum-security institution. No matter where they are, though, there are two criteria—

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Again, is it possible for you to share those figures with us on the parole applications and approvals at maximum-security and medium-security institutions?

[Jennifer Oades]

Likely, yes, we do have that, so we'll get that to you.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thank you.

You were going to talk about two criteria. The chair hasn't cut me off yet.

[Jennifer Oades]

Yes, there are two criteria in law. The offender will not, by reoffending, present an undue risk to society before the expiration of their sentence, and—it's not an “or”, it's an “and”—the release of the offender will contribute to the protection of society by facilitating his or her reintegration as a law-abiding citizen.

Those are the two criteria that the board is most interested in and, by law, must consider before making a decision.

[The Chair, Liberal, Heath MacDonald]

Thank you, Ms. Oades.

We're moving on to Mr. Kurek, please, for five minutes.

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

Thank you very much, and thanks to our witnesses for being here. Specifically, a big thanks to all of those who serve under you in your organizations for the hard work they do to keep Canadians safe.

Commissioner Duheme, I'm just wondering if you could commit to tabling the number of cases that might be affected by the Bykovets decision. Is that something you'd be able to take back and table with this committee?

[Commr Michael Duheme]

I can commit that we'll look into it, but I'm just not quite sure if we have it.