Public Safety Committee on April 29th, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, Heath MacDonald]

Thank you.

Mr. Genuis, go ahead, please.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

I'd like to propose an amendment based on Mr. MacGregor's excellent suggestion.

I would add at the end of the motion the following: “and invite representatives of the Victoria Police Department to appear before the committee for two hours.”

[The Chair, Liberal, Heath MacDonald]

Is there anyone else?

(Amendment negatived: nays 6; yeas 4)

(Motion negatived: nays 6; yeas 4)

We're going to continue now with our line of questioning. I believe Ms. O'Connell is up.

[Jennifer O'Connell, Liberal, Pickering—Uxbridge, ON]

Thank you, Chair. Thank you to the witnesses for sticking through that.

I want to start with you, Mr. Jack. Thank you.

I think CAA has done a study—correct me if I'm wrong—that found that 33% of Canadians who own vehicles have factory-installed anti-theft systems. I want to know a little bit more.

You spoke in your opening remarks about these anti-theft systems. It's somewhat unfair to put that on the consumer after they've already purchased the car.

Are you finding that there are certain manufacturers whose cars are harder to steal, who are putting in place some of these regulations? I recognize the point you've made in terms of updating the legislation on anti-theft systems and that it is quite dated.

We've heard at committee that some cars are stolen far more often than others and that some in the industry are making headway.

Do you have anything to add to that?

[Ian Jack]

I would like to turn to my colleague Elliott in just a moment on this. He's a bit more knowledgeable than I am.

I will make couple of observations.

I think what gets stolen is what's most valuable to potential buyers. I think that our criminal gangs put more effort into figuring out ways to steal some vehicles than others. That's one factor among many.

I think the other point I would make is, again, the importance of a national standard, which is a federal responsibility for new vehicles going forward, so we don't end up with an ongoing game of whack-a-mole where maybe one manufacturer does do a better job, and their vehicles stop getting stolen. But guess what? The theft just moves over to another sort of vehicle.

With those two points, I'll turn it over to Elliott.

[Elliott Silverstein]

Thank you.

It's a great question. We certainly know that there are a lot of vehicles that are highly in demand. Part of the challenge we face is that the standards in Canada are grossly out of date. As we look at the industry as a whole, the challenge really becomes that, as some vehicles become tougher to steal, thieves are looking for vehicles that are in demand, and they'll move on to other ones.

We need to update the standards so that all vehicles are safe. It shouldn't matter what make or model we're focusing on. We tell Canadians that they know that their vehicles are safe. We really need to update standards that haven't been looked at since 2007. We really need to look at that as we approach 20 years. There's a lot more that the industry can and should do, because Canadians should not be shouldering the cost of the aftermarket costs to keep their vehicle safe when they are already paying a lot for those vehicles and other types of theft deterrence in their own home.

[Jennifer O'Connell, Liberal, Pickering—Uxbridge, ON]

Thank you.

We've heard at committee—and Mr. Schiefke has raised the point as well—that we're seeing the same trends in the increase in vehicle theft in the U.S. per capita. I was meeting with some of our U.S. counterparts at the border and ATF. Europe is also seeing an increase. While domestic politicians want to play games and try to blame certain legislation, we're seeing an increase around the world. New Zealand, I believe, is seeing the highest number of car thefts that they've experienced as well.

On the manufacturing anti-theft side, it's quite important that we also keep up with international standards or else the value of stolen cars in Canada just goes way up.

[Ian Jack]

Absolutely. There are other jurisdictions acting on this as well. To your point, if we don't or if we're slower, we will simply see more car theft in our country than in other jurisdictions. I think, again, that it's a very good argument to be moving as quickly as we can.

My only other observation, with great respect, is that Canadians drive vehicles in Canada and are worried about them being stolen here, not about New Zealand.

[Jennifer O'Connell, Liberal, Pickering—Uxbridge, ON]

It was more about the point that, if we are behind in making these changes and other jurisdictions update their anti-theft legislation, then we will be more vulnerable.

If I have a little time left, I would like to ask the question of Ms. Afzal or Ms. Aimers.

I was just in B.C. this past weekend doing a ride-along with police in Chilliwack. They had a bait car and were talking about it. They did talk about the fact that they are not seeing the increase in auto theft in B.C. This was the RCMP there representing what they're seeing on the ground.

Do you have any idea why B.C. is not experiencing the same levels of auto theft?

[Shabnem Afzal]

One reason we're hearing that from our law enforcement partners is that there are a number of variables, obviously. It's never black and white; there are lots of grey areas. We can say definitively that we feel that the organized crime aspect of vehicle theft has not really reached B.C. so much. We have organized crime of all different types, but in terms of auto theft, we're not seeing that same rise in organized crime.

Part of that may be due to the fact that our borders are connected to different countries, obviously. This is speculation and not for me to say, obviously, and enforcement could answer these questions way better. We just don't have the same markets that eastern Canada has to be able to ship to. The western side of Canada does not. Most of our vehicles that are stolen remain in Canada. We have a good rate in that seven out of 10 vehicles are recovered. That was the last I heard from our enforcement partners.

Also, the nature of the vehicles that get stolen here hasn't really changed to the newer models with the anti-theft devices. It's really mostly still the older vehicles. They're usually stolen, from what we're told, in the commission of a crime or those similar types of things.

[The Chair, Liberal, Heath MacDonald]

Thank you.

Ms. Michaud, you have six minutes, please.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My sincere thanks to the witnesses for being with us today.

Throughout our auto theft study, my focus has been on figuring out the causes and identifying solutions with the help of the various witnesses. I want to hear their recommendations on what else the government can do to prevent auto theft.

For the benefit of my constituents, I'd like to take this opportunity to ask, first, the ICBC representatives and then the CAA representatives about how auto theft impacts victims.

We know that insurers paid out more than a billion dollars for auto theft claims in 2022. How do you determine car insurance premiums? Can you tell us more about that? Is auto theft affecting rising insurance premiums across the country? I would think so, but I'd like to hear from you. If someone's vehicle is stolen, how much would their premium go up? What about people whose vehicles are stolen over and over again? In a case in Montreal, a resident had their vehicle stolen and was able to get it back, but it was stolen again a few months later. What effect does that have from the insurer's standpoint? How do you calculate that and how does it affect the people you insure?

The ICBC representatives can go first.

[Kelly Aimers]

Is it possible to repeat that question in English?

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

I can repeat it in French. You should have the interpretation.

Could you please explain to the witnesses how the interpretation works?

[The Chair, Liberal, Heath MacDonald]

Ms. Aimers, are you receiving interpretation? No? Did you choose the channel at the bottom of your screen? I believe there's a globe. Have you got it? Okay.

Do you know what, Ms. Michaud? You start over.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

All right. Thank you.

I'll start over. First, though, ladies, could you tell me whether you are hearing the interpretation?

Is it working? Great.

I said that, since the beginning of our study, my focus had been on finding out the causes of the auto theft problem in Canada, as well as identifying stakeholders' solutions and recommendations for police, the Canada Border Services Agency, or CBSA, and even the government, which could introduce new legislation or regulations.

Today, for the benefit of my constituents, I want to take advantage of your expertise, as insurers, to ask how the rise in auto thefts across the country is affecting people. We know that insurers have paid out more than a billion dollars for auto theft claims.

What impact is the rise in auto thefts having on the premiums of people whose cars haven't been stolen and those whose cars have? Is there a difference? Are everyone's premiums going up? How does it work? How do you go about determining someone's premium?

I will have more questions afterwards.

[Kelly Aimers]

I can take the insurance part of it.

If you do have an auto theft claim, it does not impact your insurance costs unless you have multiple claims in the last few years. If you have, I believe, three or more, it will have an impact on your insurance costs. It actually will have an impact on the deductible that you pay, but otherwise, it's not your fault if your car is stolen. If you have an anti-theft device in your vehicle, we do provide a $100 rebate off your deductible if that device has been tampered with in the event of a claim.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

If I understand correctly, someone who's had multiple claims in the past few years would see their premium go up.

Do the claims have to involve car theft, or does the reason for the claim not matter, say a broken windshield or a fender-bender?

If the person's vehicle is stolen a few months or years later, their premium can go up. Is that right?

[Kelly Aimers]

If you have multiple thefts it will increase the deductible. I think it's a minimum deductible of $2,500 if you have multiple thefts in the last few years.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you.

Thank you for being here, Mr. Jack.

In your opening statement, you made some very important points, especially the fact that cars are easier and easier to steal. Do you think technology is having a negative impact in this situation?

It seems as though cars you unlock the old-fashioned way, in other words, with a key, are less likely to be stolen than new cars, whose systems are all technology-based. You can connect your car to your cellphone, for example.

Does new technology create an additional risk for manufacturers?

[Ian Jack]

We don't think so.

We can't turn back the clock either. Do social media platforms have a harmful effect on teens? Yes, but that's the world we are living in. The same goes for the technology used in vehicles. Things have to advance. Consider that iPhones use two-factor authentication. Why wouldn't today's cars have that?

I'm going to turn the floor over to our expert, Mr. Silverstein.

[Elliott Silverstein]

Thank you.

I think when it comes down to it, a lot of people like the technology for convenience, but we're trading off the safety right now and that's a big challenge because we are at a breaking point. We have the challenge of how frequently thefts are happening. We have people who are struggling to find vehicles when they're stolen.

While people love the push-button starts and they love the convenience of what's in their vehicles, we can't trade off the safety aspect. There's the fact that the standards have not been updated in nearly 20 years. There's the fact that when people have to get new vehicles they're facing higher interest rates, they're facing higher prices for the new cars and they're having their family life disrupted because they can't get rental cars. All these pieces come together.

Is the technology a blessing or a curse in some ways? People love it, but it's also been a bit of a driver for the challenges we face. I think we need to make sure that standards are updated because safety should be paramount for everybody.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you.

Mr. Jack pointed out that cellphones use face recognition technology now, and wondered why vehicles don't do the same. It only makes sense. As I've told other witnesses, when I park my car, I get a notification on my cellphone telling me where it is. Wouldn't it be possible to have a similar mechanism, where you get a notification when someone else starts your car? It can't be that difficult to set something like that up.

The committee met with car manufacturers, and they were rather quick to lay the blame at the door of organized crime, saying that police and the government needed to do more. Do you think carmakers have a role here as well and should be doing more?

[Elliott Silverstein]

I'll speak on this.

I think that automakers play an important role in this. We've talked to our members and we've done public polling. We know that over 80% of those surveyed feel that manufacturers need to do more.

We know that it is a challenge, and certainly organized crime is a component of this. Everybody plays a role in this, whether you're an insurer, government, law enforcement, but manufacturers as well. We all have to play that important part.

At the end of the day, two-factor authentication is important. However, when we hear of proprietary issues and other challenges like that, we have other industries like banks that have been able to keep their proprietary pieces in order and still ensure the safety of their industry. We need to do the same here for Canadians because a vehicle is somebody's second-largest purchase outside of their home and we need to have the standards and the security up to date to make sure that they have the peace of mind that their car is going to be there in the morning.

[The Chair, Liberal, Heath MacDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Silverstein.

For our last questioner in this round we have Mr. MacGregor, please.

You have six minutes.