Veterans Affairs Committee on Feb. 14th, 2024

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Mr. Desilets. You've had the floor for exactly two and a half minutes.

Ms. Rachel Blaney, you have two and half minutes, please.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you so much, Chair.

If I could come back to Ms. Perron and Ms. Park again around another issue, I would just like to hear if they've heard of this.

I've been hearing from more and more veterans who, in the transition period, are really having a hard time getting housing. It seems to be a growing concern, especially with the cost of housing. I'm just wondering if you're hearing the same thing and what the impact would be on transition.

Then the other part that that I think is really important—and I haven't heard any testimony on it yet—is around single veterans. The other thing I've been hearing a lot is that when single veterans leave and are in transition, they don't really get the same level of support. There are no resources for them to have a support person to come with them to do things that sometimes a spouse or a child would be able to do.

I'm just wondering if you could talk about anything you're hearing about the transition period in housing and those realities for single veterans.

[LCol Sandra Perron]

Yes, I have heard those things. I've heard it especially from single mothers who are veterans and have transitioned and have had difficulty finding a new home. Most of them would like to buy a house. They've never had a chance to really build equity because they've moved around so much. Also, their interest rates were locked in five years ago, but then they had to move and get a new interest rate. It's also a challenge for these women.

Yes, it is absolutely a problem.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you.

[Rosemary Park]

It's the nature of their work that they're not in one place. They're not putting down roots. I don't know if we can say this portability that means people don't have the equity is unique to the military. I don't know that it's unique to the military, but I think the number of single women—particularly as they are aging—who are more financially at risk is a flag that we haven't done any work on. There's more that we don't know.

There are several researchers in gerontology I am in contact with, and we're going to be looking at that question of single women as they age, because we don't know.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you very much, Ms. Blaney.

With that, our first panel comes to an end.

On behalf of the members of the committee, I would like to thank the witnesses for coming, for participating in this exercise, for answering our questions and for providing us with even more information on the transition from military to civilian life.

I'd first like to thank Darryl Cathcart, an education consultant, who testified as an individual by videoconference.

I would also like to thank honorary Lieutenant Colonel Sandra Perron, founder and chief executive officer of Pepper Pod; and retired Lieutenant Commander Rosemary Park, founder of Servicewomen's Salute Canada.

I will suspend the meeting for a few minutes while we say goodbye to our witnesses and welcome the new ones.

The meeting is suspended.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

I call the meeting back to order.

Our meeting is on the study of the transition from military to civilian life.

I would like to welcome the witnesses and thank them for being with us. We're grateful to them for taking part in this meeting. I would invite them to address their comments to the chair when they answer members' questions.

From the Royal Canadian Legion, we have Luc Fortier, Quebec command vice-president.

From Survivor Perspectives Consulting Group, we have Ms. Donna Van Leusden Riguidel, who is the director.

You will have five minutes each for your opening statements. After that, we will ask you some questions.

I'll start with Mr. Fortier.

I'm told that Mr. Fortier wants to be gentlemanly and is giving his place to Ms. Riguidel.

I invite Ms. Riguidel to take the floor for five minutes, please.

[Donna Van Leusden Riguidel, Director, Survivor Perspectives Consulting Group]

Thank you.

Good afternoon, committee.

I decided prior to coming in here that I wouldn't take—hopefully—the whole five minutes, because I want to try to save as much time as possible for questions, but I do have a few points I want to highlight.

I've testified a few times on the subject of military sexual trauma and survivors. I won't belabour that a whole lot, but it's definitely going to come into play a little bit. There are currently some issues going on that should be reasonably easy to fix. One is that there is a movement among transition units and transition centres right now attempting to stop survivors from going to the media. Official emails have been sent to survivors asking them to sign a document similar to an NDA, preventing them from bringing their own stories to the media.

As we all know, that is in direct violation of other guidance that already exists for the Canadian Armed Forces, so I would urge everybody within government to engage and stop this from happening, because it is, of course, causing survivors to not only feel continued shame but also be unable to bring their own stories and everything to the media and to tell their stories the way they want to.

Along with that, there is an issue right now that is affecting me personally and that I imagine will start affecting others. Prior to highlighting this, I want to share that the last StatsCan survey showed that one in five reservists will experience military sexual trauma within their careers. Right now, with low recruiting numbers and everything else, we are leaning heavily on the primary reserves to fill spots they didn't use to, especially in trades that are a little bit harder to recruit for.

I was a public affairs officer and I was a class B reservist for the majority of my career. I worked full time as a reservist and as such I worked in Winnipeg, Edmonton and eventually Ottawa. I was released at the end of March 2022 as a class B reservist due to military sexual trauma, a service-related injury.

A reservist who leaves the military is entitled to what they call a “return home move”. It's a benefit that exists for one year after the time of release to allow the military to move the reservist back to the place they were moved from. It would move me back to Edmonton or to another location in Canada without exceeding the cost to move me home to Edmonton.

I cannot avail myself of that benefit because, when I exited the military, I was still undergoing therapy, which I'm in now. My condition has progressed to the point now where I was diagnosed with fibromyalgia this past September. However, my move benefit expired a year after service. I requested an extension and I was told that no policy existed to extend that move benefit for reservists.

Regular force members are allowed to extend what's called their “intended place of residence move”. That is allowed for two years, and then they can have an extension for up to five years after release if they have medical support to support that. It is generally granted. It's considered an easy thing to grant as a show of support for people who have exited the military due to injury. Reservists do not qualify for that extension.

It's my understanding that this is a gap that has just started to come to people's attention. It's going to affect not only me. I'm regarding it in the same way as the gaps that came to our attention after the shooting on Parliament Hill, when we lost a reservist and people all of a sudden realized that reservists didn't qualify for the same death benefits that regular force members did. This is along those same lines.

Yes, there are very necessary gaps. As a class B reservist, I make a little bit less. I don't have to move. I can apply for positions that can require me to move. Therefore, I make a little bit less. I absolutely accept that, but the fact that I am not able to get a move back to, potentially, more support or out of a house.... The house I currently live in has lots of stairs. My fibromyalgia could develop to a point where I won't be able to move around my own home, but I don't qualify for that benefit because I was a full-time reservist. I'd like to bring that to the attention of the committee.

Along with that, there are also a few lighter issues. One involves the education training benefit. People who serve in the military 12 years or less, or plus 12 years, are entitled to a certain amount of funding for an education training benefit to go to university or to pursue further education, but the use of that money is very strict. You can use it only towards something like university.

I'd like to see that policy opened up to allow people to take other kinds of courses they may be interested in or potentially to use that money to help them fund a business or an entrepreneur program or something along those lines that would allow those people to become employers themselves. I think that would be a really powerful show of support that the government could give veterans.

The final piece goes back a little bit to entrepreneurs again. I know I'm biased because I am an entrepreneur, but in the U.S., there currently exists a system under which a certain percentage of each government's yearly contracts have to go to veteran-owned businesses. They also have a separate category for disabled veteran-owned businesses and another category for female veteran-owned businesses. They are small percentages in the grand scheme of things, and it doesn't necessarily mean that you're guaranteed, but it does mean that you can apply for certification as one of those businesses. That might open up a whole world of other opportunities to you.

Those are my points. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you very much, Ms. Riguidel.

We'll now go to Mr. Fortier.

Mr. Fortier, you have five minutes.

[Luc Fortier, Quebec command Vice-President, Royal Canadian Legion]

Mr. Chair, ladies and gentlemen, thank you very much.

I'm testifying today as vice‑president and service officer for the Royal Canadian Legion, but the examples I will give are those I've experienced personally.

There are probably a lot of veterans like me. So what I'm going to say today is typical of an injured veteran.

My name is Luc Fortier, and I'm an injured veteran in retirement. I am vice‑president of the Quebec command of the Royal Canadian Legion. I look after the service officers.

As you know, there are many programs available to veterans, including the Veterans Affairs Canada assistance service, the peer support program, which offers the operational stress injury social support, or OSISS, program and operational stress injury clinics, or OSIs, to name a few.

All these fine programs are of little use if veterans aren't able to tick box 1, meaning have access to a doctor. To access a program, you have to have a doctor. It's that simple.

During my testimony, I'll use myself as an example to describe the typical veteran. My own efforts will help other veterans go further.

Right now, I'm experiencing a lot of anxiety, just because I'm here among you, but it still feels good to be here. We can also say that veterans are all like that.

I have 32 years of service as an infantryman for the Royal 22nd Regiment. I've been on eight deployments. During my career, I suffered a lot of physical and non‑physical injuries that required a lot of medical visits.

In 2012, I was diagnosed with severe PTSD, along with numerous mental health issues. One of the symptoms that really bothers me is agoraphobia.

It was therefore extremely difficult for me to leave my home today. Getting out of the house on a daily basis is almost impossible for me. To be here—thank you for inviting me—I took on a big challenge.

Going to see a doctor was easy when I was still serving. All I had to do was go to the sick parade, go to triage, and away I went. An hour later, I was back at my unit or at home, depending on my condition.

The day we're told that we're being released from the armed forces for medical reasons, we're also told not to forget to apply for our health card.

I've never had a health card. When I joined the armed forces, I was told that it was prohibited.

It took me much longer than three months to receive my health card, because we were in the middle of a pandemic. So I have a card without a photo.

In my case, I was told that it was time for me to look for a doctor, which I did in 2018. Now, in 2024, I still don't have a doctor.

When I got out of the military, I got a ton of prescriptions, and they were useless. Unless we have a doctor or an organization to help us, we can't get them renewed.

We're also told that there is an app for our phones called Maple. You can use it for free for a year. If you ever have a medical problem, all you have to do is use it and see what the results are. I did because I had a major medical problem, and I was told to go see my family doctor. It's a bit annoying.

At least what's reassuring when you leave the armed forces is that you get a 24‑month prescription for all your medications. In my case, because I don't have a family doctor, it's almost impossible to renew my prescriptions.

At the moment, the pharmacy has been renewing my prescriptions to meet my needs since last November. I need my medication to live, or I wouldn't be here today. What am I going to do at the end of the month? The pharmacy will continue to help me and won't let me down.

When a member leaves the armed forces for medical reasons, a number of requests are made for various conditions. The good thing is that, if the member is still serving, he can go see his doctor on the base and get a report that will be consistent with his injuries.

When a request is made to Veterans Affairs Canada, the requests are accepted most of the time, but the response doesn't necessarily reflect the actual extent of the injury. So the decision will be appealed.

Again, the appeal process requires you to have a doctor. So you can check off the appeal process, so to speak, and you wait.

It's the same thing with Manulife. When you leave the system, you're told that you're covered by Manulife for two years, but Manulife doesn't answer the telephone. The company sends you an email 18 months later to say that you have to go back to work, unless you have a doctor who says otherwise.

I don't have a family doctor, so I lost my coverage.

Making appointments with a doctor is another mess. You're told to call a certain number, which is the rapid access office.

Once we get an answer, and I emphasize “once we get an answer”, we're asked all kinds of questions about the reason for our request. Once the information is gathered, we're told that a doctor will call us the next day, that we must wait for the call and, above all, that we must not miss it.

If no doctor calls us the next day, especially if the person is like me and is experiencing anxiety, it's hell. You walk around in circles, pace back and forth, look at the phone. You don't even want to move for fear of missing the phone call. If the doctor doesn't call the next day and you have to start over the next day, you give up. I did it twice, and then I gave up. Try to imagine what it's like not being able to go and see a doctor because the process is unbearable.

Earlier this year, there were two new doctors in the town next door, 10 minutes from my house, not far. They wanted to build their clientele. So I asked if I could give my name to be part of that clientele. Surprise, surprise: the medical system is sectoral. That means that if I stay in Chicoutimi and the doctor is in La Baie, only 10 minutes from my home, I can't go there. I will never have a doctor in Chicoutimi. It's not easy.

What I'm looking for as an injured veteran, and what most veterans are looking for, is a solution so that our injured veterans can take care of themselves instead of gritting their teeth and using alternative medicines, which aren't necessarily legal. All of this is necessary to prevent us from continuing to grit our teeth and making the problem worse.

In conclusion, I would like to add that we, the people at the Quebec command of the Royal Canadian Legion—I'm not speaking for all of Canada, but only for Quebec—we recommend that representations be made to the Quebec Minister of Health to authorize military members who are medically released to go to the neighbouring city for care. We ask for this only when we are medically released from the Canadian Armed Forces. The transition groups could manage it.

With a doctor, it's possible to benefit from our programs. So it creates less complexity. In addition, this solution doesn't cost anything until a better solution is found. This is really important for me, because a number of veterans and I are starting to feel discouraged in life. I could go on and on.

I'm now ready to answer your questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you for your courage. You come here and tell your story, and I imagine other veterans can relate to what you just said.

Thank you again for being here, and thank you for your service.

Before we go to questions, I would like to ask the committee members a question.

I'd like to know if I have unanimous consent to go past 6:30.

Mr. Miao, go ahead.

[Wilson Miao, Liberal, Richmond Centre, BC]

I have a flight to catch, but I'm happy to find someone to cover.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Okay.

Mr. Casey.

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

I'm chairing a meeting a seven o'clock. If I can be out of here by 6:50, I'll give my consent to it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Members of the committee, what I suggest is one round of six minutes each until the end. That's great.

I'll start with Mr. Blake Richards for six minutes.

Go ahead, please.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

Mr. Fortier, I'll start with you.

Thank you for your service to the country, and thank you for your testimony today.

My French isn't perfect, so I'll ask my questions in English. I have two questions for you, one about doctors and one about housing.

The first question is about housing.

We heard from a previous witness here and the defence committee also heard from the executive director of the Legion in Nova Scotia about many problems. We're hearing not just about veterans, but certainly about veterans in terms of having a lack of housing, for example. There are many homeless veterans—far too many of them, and the number seems to be growing. However, we're also hearing now about even serving members of the Canadian Armed Forces in some places who do not have housing. They can't afford it. They're living in cars or they're couch surfing, etc.

I wonder if, in your work with the Legion in Quebec, you've heard about these issues with veterans who are homeless or struggling with housing.

[Luc Fortier]

Thank you for the question.

Yes, indeed, it's a hot topic, because it's a growing problem. An increasing number of veterans are homeless. That's somewhat understandable in the current context, especially in some places in Canada.

You say that there are active military members who are homeless, and I have no difficulty believing that, especially if those people are in places where the cost of living is very high. Thirty‑two years ago, when I was a soldier, I needed a second job to support my family, whereas people in the west were entitled to social assistance. That's just to give you an idea of the cost of living compared to the military salary in some places. So it can happen to serving members.

With regard to the transition from military to civilian life, we have to look at the reasons why veterans end up on the street. Where does that come from? Why are they homeless? Why did they suddenly decide to stop being at home and live on the streets? We have to find the reason behind that. Once we've found it and solved this problem, we'll be able to work with individuals.

I live in Chicoutimi, which is at the end of the road, so to speak, in the Saguenay. It's a long way away. When you get to Chicoutimi, there's nothing after that. If you keep going, you'll end up in the water. We spoke to two homeless veterans. After listening to them and trying to understand why they were in this situation, we learned that they were veterans of the war in Afghanistan. When they were in Afghanistan, they were under the influence of a substance naturally produced by the body. When they returned to Quebec, their bodies stopped producing it. This pushed them into what I called secondary medicine. For them, it's their place, and to follow that way of life, you have to not have any possessions. I'm talking about what happened in my neck of the woods, in Saguenay.

In short, to help you find an answer, I would say that it's important to first determine the why and then support veterans in their journey, without forcing their hand. Otherwise, they often sink deeper.

What was your second question?

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

It sounds as though it's a growing problem. I think what I'm hearing is that it hasn't been as big a challenge in your area or in Quebec in general. However, recently you've been seeing a lot more homeless veterans given the cost of living crisis we're facing and things like that.

Would you say that's a large part of it—the cost of living crisis? Are there other things that you think are part of it?

[Luc Fortier]

First of all, I'm not an expert in this area, but I have spoken to veterans and their families. I would say that most of the time those two things—

[Donna Van Leusden Riguidel]

May I make a quick comment?

[Luc Fortier]

Yes, Ms. Riguidel.

[Donna Van Leusden Riguidel]

I might have a little bit of input here.

The cost of housing crisis is not new for the CAF. I worked at IRP in 2006, and I can remember people coming back from house-hunting trips in Edmonton in tears because they knew they couldn't afford anything out there, especially those in the junior ranks. They just weren't making enough. To add to that, it used to be that homelessness was a problem involving predominantly male veterans who were on the streets, but women are quickly catching up. Statistically speaking, women are suffering from homelessness at greater rates.

There's also a hidden homelessness piece for those who don't have their own home. They have to stay with family members or friends, which opens them up to potential abuse, not to mention the dangerous situations in which female veterans remain because they can't afford to leave or because they have children they're primarily responsible for.

I've spoken to padres. On some bases padres have access to emergency housing in cases of domestic violence. On bases like Esquimalt, they don't have that housing. Because the cost of living is so high, they don't have a place to put people in crisis, so they have to work through domestic violence shelters on the civilian side, which of course is a very imperfect solution.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

One veteran who is homeless is too many, and one member of our forces who is homeless is too many, but there are far more than that unfortunately. Thank you both for your contribution on that.

I want to ask you about doctors, Mr. Fortier. You mentioned that there are lots of programs and services available. Sometimes veterans say there are so many different programs that it's confusing. It makes it hard to access any of them, but one of the challenges to being able to access any of them is that you have to have a doctor who can understand the darned paperwork and who is prepared to actually accept doing all the paperwork that the government finds necessary in order to provide benefits and services.

You talked about your own experience, but can you talk about some of the experiences you've heard about from other veterans you've worked with as well?