Evidence of meeting #110 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was wheelchair.
A video is available from Parliament.
11:55 a.m.
Board Chair, Canadian National Institute for the Blind
No, I was just wondering if I could also respond to this particular question. Would that be permissible, Mr. Chair?
11:55 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Peter Schiefke
I'll look around the room....
Okay. I have unanimous consent from members to allow you to answer the question.
I'll give you 30 seconds to do so, please.
11:55 a.m.
Board Chair, Canadian National Institute for the Blind
I was just going to say that part of the barriers that people with disabilities face in the regulatory process is the lack of accessibility of the processes themselves to even make complaints. As you know, disabilities do not take breaks for statutory holidays or weekends or business hours. Often when we're travelling, it's at six in the morning or eight at night. You can't access the various mechanisms for making a complaint if you don't have your phone with you or Internet access.
You're often faced with the airline saying that the incident didn't happen the way you described it in your complaint. They question you based on the fact that you filed it a day or two later, when your memory may not be quite as fresh as it would have been if you'd been able to file it when the incident actually happened.
Thank you.
11:55 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Peter Schiefke
Thank you for adding that, Mr. Fenton.
I now give the floor to Mr. Barsalou‑Duval for six minutes.
April 18th, 2024 / 11:55 a.m.
Bloc
Xavier Barsalou-Duval Bloc Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, witnesses, for being with us today.
Other colleagues may have pointed this out, but your testimony is truly touching. It's as if we were living, in a way, the reality you describe. Obviously, as I'm not disabled, I don't know this reality, but we can at least imagine it. It helps us to better understand the importance of ensuring the dignity and improving the quality of life of people with disabilities, who need to get around, just like anyone else. I think we do very important work, in this committee, and I thank you all for your testimony.
I'd like to address Mr. Fenton first.
We've heard a lot of testimony from people in wheelchairs, but we've heard less from people who are blind. For example, we've talked about the issue of adapting airplanes to allow a wheelchair to pass between rows or in the toilets. Currently, do blind people also encounter difficulties in air travel, in terms of access to toilets or the ability to move around, for example?
11:55 a.m.
Board Chair, Canadian National Institute for the Blind
I will do my best to respond. My French is not perfect, and I do not have a link to access translation. I just want to make sure I understand the question first.
You asked, what barriers are there for people who are blind on the aircraft that might be similar to something like people in a wheelchair having difficulty accessing the washroom? Is that the essence of the question?
11:55 a.m.
Board Chair, Canadian National Institute for the Blind
There are a couple of things here. It's almost impossible now for someone who is blind to know what row they're at when they're navigating the aircraft, whether they're coming back from a washroom or trying to find their seat when they board. On the aircraft, they used to have braille and large labelling on the luggage bins at the top that we could feel and know what row we were at. That has been taken away from us. We don't have that access.
Another issue that we run into, especially on the 787 aircraft, is with the entertainment system. The only way you can access a call button is if you press a spot on the screen on the entertainment system. The problem is that the spot moves. It's not always in the same place.
Another issue that we run into with U.S. carriers is that you have to order your food or any drinks you might want—a soft drink or a glass of water or something—through the screen. It's not accessible because it doesn't speak, and they won't accept orders any other way.
There are actual barriers on the aircraft that we face as people who are blind that are not dealt with by other passengers.
Thank you.
Noon
Bloc
Xavier Barsalou-Duval Bloc Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC
Thank you, Mr. Fenton. That pretty much answers my question.
My next question is for Mr. Lupien.
I heard you speak earlier on all sorts of subjects. I'm glad you could join us today. I'm glad it was possible for you to take part in the committee's work, because I really wanted you to do so.
I'd like to hear your views on a subject that you didn't talk about, but that several witnesses did. According to many, it is important for people with disabilities to be taken care of, from the moment they arrive at the airport to the moment they are seated on board the aircraft. At present, there are sometimes gaps in care, and people don't know what's going to happen to them. Some also experience frustration when they have to repeat and re-explain their accommodation needs.
In your opinion, would it make sense for care to be provided by the same person, from start to finish?
Noon
Chair, Confédération des organismes de personnes handicapées du Québec
Thank you very much, Mr. Barsalou‑Duval.
What really worries me, with regard to people in wheelchairs, is that they not only have to control their wheelchair, but also drag the cart on which their luggage is placed. That's another thing. These people need to be looked after by one and the same person from the moment they arrive at the airport until they board the plane. Otherwise, if the person taking care of them has to leave at some point, they may forget to send another person to take their place. It would therefore be important for the same person to be in charge.
As for solutions to consider, there's an example that was often mentioned during committee meetings. A U.S. airline operating domestic flights had made adaptations, notably in the toilets, to enable disabled people to board the plane in their own wheelchairs. The company had removed seats and reserved space for these people. It had even examined the possibility of psychological assistance, among other things. Unfortunately, this airline did not survive the COVID-19 pandemic and went bankrupt. It had, however, made all the necessary modifications to facilitate access to the plane.
Airplane toilets should be designed so that people with disabilities can access them with their own wheelchairs. Access to toilets should also be made easier for people with intellectual or any other kind of disability.
Besides the need for everything to be fitted out, there needs to be support from arrival at the airport to boarding, and vice versa for the return journey. When a disabled person wants to collect their luggage, they must be accompanied and taken care of from the plane to the luggage, and then to the airport exit. This is just as important for wheelchair users as it is for blind people or those with other disabilities. There really needs to be one person in charge.
Noon
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Peter Schiefke
Thank you very much.
Next we have Mr. Bachrach.
The floor is yours for six minutes, please.
Noon
NDP
Taylor Bachrach NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you to all of our witnesses who have joined us today. This has been some really powerful, if not troubling, testimony. I think it's really going to strengthen the committee's report.
I also want to thank my colleagues for agreeing to extend the study by a meeting to allow for more testimony from people with lived experience.
I'll start my questions with a fairly general topic. That's the one of prevalence.
We heard from the big airlines at a previous meeting. At the beginning of their presentations, they both cited statistics that seemed to me to be an attempt to minimize the prevalence or perceived prevalence of issues involving accessibility onboard airplanes or at airports.
Perhaps I'll start my questions with Ms. Ziv. I'm not sure if she heard this testimony, but I'm sure she's heard it before because this is a very common refrain from people in the industry.
How is that sort of minimization received by people living with disabilities?
How do we shift that to a more realistic and solutions-oriented message from the people who are really the ones who should be responsible for changing the system?
12:05 p.m.
Chief Executive Officer, AccessNow
Thank you for the question.
Yes, I have heard the testimonies.
As a person who has been on the receiving end of one of "the few" that were suggested to have experienced the difficulty, I can tell you that the data—which we don't even have on record because there is no documentation of every single incident—is not fulsome. We don't have the proper mechanisms to hold all parties accountable in the experiences in which people with disabilities are being failed.
For whatever data they are choosing to present, those are the cases that are requiring disabled people to advocate for themselves from a position that is often a very difficult one to be in.
I have a few other points on this question, if I may.
If we were not talking about disability and any person was permitted to say that for the majority of flights, all passengers travel just fine and once in awhile—excuse my language—we decapitate their legs, but it's only once in awhile, what type of sacrifice would we be accepting?
Yet, that is the statement being made. The fact that the airlines feel comfortable making that statement in itself is very telling.
For passengers that experience hardship, even the smallest percent is too great a percent. There are no incidents that are acceptable.
Therefore, we need proper accountability to demonstrate exactly how many times and how often this is happening. This is happening every single day, often in silence.
We need to ensure that there is strong regulation so that it is not a suggestion that airlines respond, but so that they have to, every single time. It's not a courtesy; it is a right that they need to respond to.
12:05 p.m.
NDP
Taylor Bachrach NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
Ms. Ziv, on this issue of data, which is tied to the issue of people's perception of the prevalence of problems, in the United States the airlines are required by law to hand complaint data over to the federal regulator, which is then made publicly accessible.
Do you feel that is a sufficient system and one that we should look to here in Canada, or are there other improvements you would suggest in that regard?
12:05 p.m.
Chief Executive Officer, AccessNow
I would say, absolutely, that is an important starting point. It allows for transparent records to be shown and for us understand the magnitude of the issue.
I would go further and say that one of the biggest barriers we're facing is that the onus is on the individual to advocate, when we need automatic mechanisms that document every single instance, and not ones only perceived by what the airline thinks is an incident.
There needs to be a way in which a passenger, whose rights are being violated, is able to declare this without the need to navigate often inaccessible systems. I feel like I have to be a journalist or a lawyer every time I go on a trip where I have to take meticulous images of all of my property. I need to make sure that I have remembered.
I remember after the incident at Tel Aviv I was so nervous of missing even a scratch that I didn't actually document the claim properly. When I'm sitting there in a manual wheelchair in tremendous pain and anxiety, now I'm in the position where I better get it right or I will be out.
We need a much better surveillance and accountability system. I would say, yes, we could look to the States for inspiration, but I think, in Canada, given our position right now where we are in a time, in our country, where we are creating standards under the Accessible Canada Act, we can do a lot more.
12:10 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Peter Schiefke
Thank you very much.
Next we have Mr. Muys.
Mr. Muys, the floor is yours. You have five minutes, sir.
12:10 p.m.
Conservative
Dan Muys Conservative Flamborough—Glanbrook, ON
Thank you to all of the witnesses, in particular because we've heard in the course of the meetings of this study from the airlines, from the Auditor General, and the CTA. However, I think what has been most valuable thus far has been your testimony today, and also the testimony we heard from others a couple of meetings ago who have had lived experiences. If I can encapsulate a little bit of what I'm hearing, the consensus, which should be an obvious one, is that the wheelchair mobility device is an extension of a person's body to the point where, obviously, Mr. Brault, has named his, in fact.
We have cars, vans, train experiences where the wheelchair isn't separated from us, as is the case with air travel. I think maybe you can enlighten us on this. Are there other modes of transportation that have done that well?
I think, Ms. Hewitt, you mentioned that in the U.S. they're looking at, I guess, getting wheelchairs with you onto the plane, instead of your having to use the airline seat, because this seems to be a significant problem. I'm not an engineer, but I would imagine this would be surmountable.
Maybe you can comment on that.
12:10 p.m.
Chair, Disability Without Poverty
I think the U.S. transportation committee is actively examining what needs to be done to planes to allow us to get onboard them with our equipment. I think Mr. Brault talked about the need for some standardization and conversations between equipment manufacturers and airlines.
We do have a number of locking mechanisms that work with vans that we may own or rent, and ways, when we go on buses, that we're meant to use to lock into certain places and so on. Some of them are more robust than others, and you would imagine that perhaps an airline would want them to go to the more robust end. However, things do exist; it's not completely impossible.
If you don't mind, I'd like to turn to Mr. Brault and ask him to continue with that, if that's okay.
Is that okay with you, Max?
12:10 p.m.
Senior Consultant, As an Individual
Yes, that's not a problem.
There currently is quite a lot of technology and advancement on how to hold the wheelchair in place. Again, the number one question you have to look at is exactly what kind of communication is going on between the designers of airplanes and the designers of the equipment themselves.
Here is a great one that comes from Saint-Eustache and Bombardier, a company that designs Canadian planes in Canada. We can come and have a conversation with them about how to design planes and ensure that certain kinds of wheelchairs can come into place.
I do agree that a manual wheelchair is not as cumbersome as the electric wheelchairs that my colleague and I are in, but there are mechanisms. I have to say that I've travelled in certain places where I've been on buses where the bus's system is so complicated and rigid that I lock my wheelchair in, and it's nice and solid. I'm literally part of the bus as the bus is moving up and down, and I feel every pothole.
There are ways to do this, folks. This needs to occur, this kind of conversation, and it needs to be an open conversation as well.
12:10 p.m.
Conservative
Dan Muys Conservative Flamborough—Glanbrook, ON
We had both major airlines in Canada here at committee, and they have accessibility plans that were presented. I know some of you are representing yourselves as individuals, but for those who are representing organizations, were you consulted in the development of those?
12:10 p.m.
Chair, Disability Without Poverty
My charity is Disability Without Poverty.
12:10 p.m.
Conservative